Addison to Death!

[EthanLeeVita]

I'm open to discussion on what might happen, but I think we should remember we can't predict what will happen either. We can reach reasonable hypothesis perhaps, but we are unlikely to account for everything. This is one of the central reasons(efficiency-wise) why planned economies don't work. I also think there will be more than one option available to deal with crime as various ideas compete with each other.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Less crime and fewer criminals is predictable in a free, responsibility based society.

[Free libertarian]

In a free society people are not enslaved to pay off debts.  The libertarian fantasy of "private prison factories" is one I want no part of.

It would all be voluntary (at least how I imagine this to work): A person wouldn't be forcibly imprisoned as they are in our current system, they'd be able to choose to work at one of these "private prison factories," or provide some other means of restitution on their own, or face social ostracism to the point where they're completely cut off from society and perhaps starve.

I'm not sure why Lloyd thinks such factories would work below prevailing wages. To operate in such a manner would simply make them so unattractive to reforming criminals that such criminals would simply find other means to pay restitution than work at these factories.

"It would all be voluntary..."  Okay what if I don't "volunteer" ?  Your model won't forcibly imprison me so maybe I'll choose not to participate.   Ostracism ? Isn't that what those really big birds that stick their heads in the sand do?   

[Kat Kanning]

Mark was in jail for murder.  Should he have been put to death instead?

[Lloyd Danforth]

Not by the gov, but, perhaps he should have, at least,  run the risk of retaliation by the family, and, maybe worked out a negotiation.

[EthanLeeVita]

Less crime and fewer criminals is predictable in a free, responsibility based society.

Oh, I don't deny that. You are removing institutional crime(government). But you can't predict the methods of the free market with how that *exactly* will be achieved.

[BillKauffman]

A free society and the responsibilities that come with it will not subsidize the underclass that generate people like him...libertarians figured all of this out years ago!

The so-called "underclass" is the direct result of the state benefiting capital via privilege. The state breaks legs and then hands out crutches.

Right-libertarians believe the welfare state is the cause of the problem and thus just want to take away crutches.
Left-libertarians believe it is privilege in support of property rules of capital that is the source of the problem and thus want the state to stop breaking legs.

[BillKauffman]

I don't know why a rich person would commit a property crime

As I said, in material egalitarian/tribal cultures (prior to society) - what would be the point of a property crime?

There were no rich and poor. That only showed up later with "society".

What is it about "society" that causes rich and poor that tribal culture never produced?

Answer: Property relationships enforced by the state.

[BillKauffman]

Less crime and fewer criminals is predictable in a free, responsibility based society.

Depends if your vision is just robber-baron capitalism minus the welfare and regulatory state or not.

If it is, then we will have more - not less crime.

[AntonLee]

I'm amused by the people against private negotiation and prison systems.  It's the usual caveman mentality.  Kill the thugs, kill the terrorists, kill the gang members, kill them all.  I'm sure I could find myself a bunch of people that would say that running a red light MIGHT kill someone and therefore to SEND A MESSAGE we gotta kill off all these evil people.

Instead, keep going with the traditional ways, one man kills a government employee and then summerilly gets the death penalty handed down by a government institution instead of a unbiased, ethical, voluntary system.  That makes sense. 

it was cut and dry right?  Man killed a cop who was just milling around minding his own business.  Tell that to Sacco and Vanzetti, their case was cut and dry too.

again, it doesn't matter all that much to me, but these people would be crying foul if their loved ones were put in the same situation.  The same old folks that cry out "he wouldn't hurt a fly he just hung out with the wrong crowd"

it's all bullshit, and I have to wonder deep down if the skin color comes into it.  If Addison was a paralegal white woman living in a highrise in Manchester. . .would things be different?

of course they would, look at the language used. . . thug, violent criminal, etc.

[J’raxis 270145]

In a free society people are not enslaved to pay off debts.  The libertarian fantasy of "private prison factories" is one I want no part of.

It would all be voluntary (at least how I imagine this to work): A person wouldn't be forcibly imprisoned as they are in our current system, they'd be able to choose to work at one of these "private prison factories," or provide some other means of restitution on their own, or face social ostracism to the point where they're completely cut off from society and perhaps starve.

I'm not sure why Lloyd thinks such factories would work below prevailing wages. To operate in such a manner would simply make them so unattractive to reforming criminals that such criminals would simply find other means to pay restitution than work at these factories.

"It would all be voluntary..."  Okay what if I don't "volunteer" ?  Your model won't forcibly imprison me so maybe I'll choose not to participate.   Ostracism ? Isn't that what those really big birds that stick their heads in the sand do?   

You'd certainly be free not to attempt to make restitution to your victim... but don't be surprised if when people find out, they want little to nothing to do with you. You'd be on your own (which if that's what you want, fine). You might think that this means that people could easily get away with crimes, but remember, in such a free society, each criminal act carries with it the very high probability that you're not going to escape committing the act alive to begin with.

[BillKauffman]

remember, in such a free society, each criminal act carries with it the very high probability that you're not going to escape committing the act alive to begin with.

Seems kind of, I don't know, arbitrary - no?

[J’raxis 270145]

remember, in such a free society, each criminal act carries with it the very high probability that you're not going to escape committing the act alive to begin with.

Seems kind of, I don't know, arbitrary - no?

How so? By probability I was simply alluding to the fact that most people would be willing and able to defend themselves.

[Hubbard]

Mark was in jail for murder.  Should he have been put to death instead?

Depends on the reason for the murder.

[AntonLee]

maybe, it's because Mark isn't a 'thug'

could that be it?