I am curious.

[John]

as bad as when I said that illegals create the majority of the crime.   It is a fact that many or most illegals who come to this country end up commiting violent crimes against citizens, as well as themselves.  That ofcourse is due to things many times, which are out of the persons control.

Wow! Where did you learn all of this stuff?

Have you ever personally communicated with an "illegal"? Have you worked with any? Have you ever even know an "illegal"?

I kind of like most of the "illegals" I've know.

[MaineShark]

I see....  about the only other statement i would have to make then, is... You say almost all of human history people have lived in total Anarchy?   I could be mistaken, but i am pretty sure, that no matter what society you bring up, there has always been a  leader, and that leader has always had his... "thugs" who make sure the followers of the leader did what was required to be a part of said society.

No, most of human history was lived by nomadic hunter-gatherers.  They had no use for rulers.

However, judging by the comment i have read, you  are suggesting that anarchy would work in todays world.   In some instances it may, but then you have to consider many things which require a leader of some sort to  take care of, or a group of leaders who happen to be REALLY good at what they do.  Think of all of the things which are taken for granted today. Food, power/heat, fuel, health, clothing, etc....   Can many of these items be replaced or lived without?? You bet!   Would you be willing to give them up?  Could you support yourself and family without the things which governments and those like them provide?

States don't provide.  States take.

If someone steals the contents of my fridge, then gives me a single sandwich, I'm not exactly going to say that he "provided lunch."

The current government doesn't provide me with food, power, heat, fuel, healthcare, clothing, or anything else.  All the government does in those areas is limit my choices and generally make things more expensive.

I do not support our current form of government or many of it's laws.   It may seem the opposite, but I look at things differently maybe.   I  viewmost of these things as necessary evils, can they be done away with? Yes, but at great sacrifice to our current way of life.   Anarchy will never work, as there will always be those who want to lead, and will lead in some form or another.

The smarter and stronger of us will always take charge and lead, and maybe make tough decissions fo others either not willing or unable.  Someone will always lead, and someone will always follow.   With that said Anarchy in it's literal form is impossible.

I have no problem with folks wanting to lead.  If someone truly excels in some field, I've little doubt that others will turn to him for leadership.

The problem is when someone wants to rule.

I choose who leads me (if anyone).  A ruler, on the other hand, shows up and declares that he's in charge, and his thugs will murder anyone who disagrees.

Leadership is determine, in general, based upon competence at the declared task.  A "leading athlete" is someone who excels at athletics.  A "leading scientist" is someone who excels at science.  A "leading surgeon" is someone who excels at surgery.

All that rulership demonstrates is that one excels at thuggery.

Should government go back to running the things they are supposed to run and leave us be?  Yes, I feel most people are more than capable of living their own lives without need of oppressive represntatives telling them what is right and wrong, and how to walk...

Power corrupts.  Any time power is centralized, it will corrupt those who wield it.  Having a small State is like having a small cancer... it might be small, now, but it will grow.

As it would seem that a great majority of those here seem to hate the police, and in certain circumstances I don't blame them, but taking instances from bad cops, (and there are alot of them) and them generalising all police in the same manor is as bad as when I said that illegals create the majority of the crime.

There aren't "a lot" of them.  Find me an example (even one) of a cop who's been on the force more than a few hours without violating anyone's human rights.

Most people who become police start the journey with good intentions, they don't always end up as such.

No, the majority of cops start out as kids who were bullies, and want to have carte blance to continue their bullying with legal immunity, or kids who were the victims of bullies, and want to get back at society.

Any group that is selected for conformity and ability to blindly follow orders, will always be such.  Decent people who want to live peacefully and productively with their neighbors do not tend to have the character traits that you must possess to even get through the first interview.

Joe

[bwirth1999]

I have worked with many in the past, and to be honest I liked them as well for the most part.   However, due to civil and economic conditions and Floridas lack of heart, the illegals who are here have, not had the best time getting jobs.  So just to live many have turned to crime.  I am currently looking for my source for this info, but not having luck.   I can tell you for a fact though, out of the 15 of which I worked with, all but one ended up in prison.   They all were legitimate crimes, nothing was twisted or made up.  Sad to say, they were nice guys, but I guess when you're struggling jsut to put food on the table, and you have limited options, and ofcourse a general distrust has been placed upon you, you don't have much choice but to bite the bullet and rob peoples homes, and in 2 cases commit violent rape. 

[bwirth1999]

I see....  about the only other statement i would have to make then, is... You say almost all of human history people have lived in total Anarchy?   I could be mistaken, but i am pretty sure, that no matter what society you bring up, there has always been a  leader, and that leader has always had his... "thugs" who make sure the followers of the leader did what was required to be a part of said society.

No, most of human history was lived by nomadic hunter-gatherers.  They had no use for rulers.

However, judging by the comment i have read, you  are suggesting that anarchy would work in todays world.   In some instances it may, but then you have to consider many things which require a leader of some sort to  take care of, or a group of leaders who happen to be REALLY good at what they do.  Think of all of the things which are taken for granted today. Food, power/heat, fuel, health, clothing, etc....   Can many of these items be replaced or lived without?? You bet!   Would you be willing to give them up?  Could you support yourself and family without the things which governments and those like them provide?

States don't provide.  States take.

If someone steals the contents of my fridge, then gives me a single sandwich, I'm not exactly going to say that he "provided lunch."

The current government doesn't provide me with food, power, heat, fuel, healthcare, clothing, or anything else.  All the government does in those areas is limit my choices and generally make things more expensive.

I do not support our current form of government or many of it's laws.   It may seem the opposite, but I look at things differently maybe.   I  viewmost of these things as necessary evils, can they be done away with? Yes, but at great sacrifice to our current way of life.   Anarchy will never work, as there will always be those who want to lead, and will lead in some form or another.

The smarter and stronger of us will always take charge and lead, and maybe make tough decissions fo others either not willing or unable.  Someone will always lead, and someone will always follow.   With that said Anarchy in it's literal form is impossible.

I have no problem with folks wanting to lead.  If someone truly excels in some field, I've little doubt that others will turn to him for leadership.

The problem is when someone wants to rule.

I choose who leads me (if anyone).  A ruler, on the other hand, shows up and declares that he's in charge, and his thugs will murder anyone who disagrees.

Leadership is determine, in general, based upon competence at the declared task.  A "leading athlete" is someone who excels at athletics.  A "leading scientist" is someone who excels at science.  A "leading surgeon" is someone who excels at surgery.

All that rulership demonstrates is that one excels at thuggery.

Should government go back to running the things they are supposed to run and leave us be?  Yes, I feel most people are more than capable of living their own lives without need of oppressive represntatives telling them what is right and wrong, and how to walk...

Power corrupts.  Any time power is centralized, it will corrupt those who wield it.  Having a small State is like having a small cancer... it might be small, now, but it will grow.

As it would seem that a great majority of those here seem to hate the police, and in certain circumstances I don't blame them, but taking instances from bad cops, (and there are alot of them) and them generalising all police in the same manor is as bad as when I said that illegals create the majority of the crime.

There aren't "a lot" of them.  Find me an example (even one) of a cop who's been on the force more than a few hours without violating anyone's human rights.

Most people who become police start the journey with good intentions, they don't always end up as such.

No, the majority of cops start out as kids who were bullies, and want to have carte blance to continue their bullying with legal immunity, or kids who were the victims of bullies, and want to get back at society.

Any group that is selected for conformity and ability to blindly follow orders, will always be such.  Decent people who want to live peacefully and productively with their neighbors do not tend to have the character traits that you must possess to even get through the first interview.

Joe

For once, I can't really argue with any of that. 

[bwirth1999]

If you took that as literal i am sorry.....



P.S.  Whats a jagaloon?

[John]

OK bwirth1999 you've convinced me that you are just trolling.

OK Mr. Ed I'll bite as well; Whats a jaggaloon?

[Free libertarian]

Jagaloon = An adult that behaves in a consistently immature fashion.   For example you can get away with Beevis and Butthead behavior at 14 or 15, but it doesn't fly at 35. 

For example : A guy at 35 behaving like a jagaloon would likely never get any attention from the ladies and would have to go home to relieve his blue balls and jagaloon.  Or be so desparate to be a funny guy he gives ridiculous examples to obscure words.  Doh! 

Disclaimer : the examples above are not meant as a depiction of any real persons, all references are purely fictional.

[bwirth1999]

John I am not trolling, apparently though, Eds' posts are gone... If it was still here you would see what I was refering to when I had responded to him, with "If you took that as literal i am sorry.....".

I don't find being poor or less fortunate an excuse to commit crimes...   

[Ed]

MaineShark thinks he can play judge, jury, and executioner and murder someone for slightly violating his personal conception of property rights.

Pots and kettles, my little jagaloons, pots and kettles. By your friends shall they know you

[Russell Kanning]

Are you saying that anyone who wants to make sure you're safe and that people who want to take advantage of you are dealt with,... are scumbags?   I find that very disturbing.   

   A question relating to the previous statement..   do you guys not see the need for police?

At least once I have had a cop tell me he was doing something for my own safety. He was handcuffing me and hauling me off against my will.
I do not want cops in my life and don't want to support them anywhere in the world.

[Ed]

of course cops can be replaced by imagining REALLY HARD how wonderful a place the world can be

[MaineShark]

MaineShark thinks he can play judge, jury, and executioner and murder someone for slightly violating his personal conception of property rights.

Pots and kettles, my little jagaloons, pots and kettles. By your friends shall they know you

No, self-defense is not murder.

When some cop kills someone because that individual behaved contrary to arbitrary words on paper... that is murder.

of course cops can be replaced by imagining REALLY HARD how wonderful a place the world can be

The world isn't a perfect place.  Eliminating State-empowered thuggery would make it a better place, though.  Amateur thugs have nothing on official thugs.

Joe

[John]

, Eds' posts are gone...

Very strange. I wonder why he took then down.

[Ed]

and there you have it, folks

you can murder a kid for walking across your lawn when you know he's not going to harm you
context:
http://forum.dvdtalk.com/7809843-post90.html

but it's the COPS and the government who are violent thugs

[Ed]

I didn't take my posts down - the mods must have taken it down - probably because libertarians can't really handle counter-arguments
I had a pretty funny post about the sociopath dance - it goes along with "we like to party" by the Vengaboys - because when you think about it, that kind of sociopathy is funny in a cosmic sense