Vegans - B12

[Lex]

If I was to become a vegan what are my options for B12 other than buying vitamins at the store or fortified foods? It just seems like a very unsustainable way to live. I understand that if you grow your own food you will get some B12 from the insects that are on the vegies but that seems a bit of a stretch and a risky proposition. Does anyone know if it's possible to culture the organisms that produce B12 at home and thus not require to purchase the vitamins from the store?

It seems so ironic that almost every Vegan website I've read so far all promote that veganism is good for the environment and that it's natural yet their life depends on fossil fuels, the economy, government and everything else that makes this world run to produce, transport and sell the B12 vitamins or fortified foods that they buy... Seems a bit odd to me. Unless most Vegans sites are supported by the vitamin manufacturers.

Edit:

For anyone who just stumbled on this thread you can save yourself from reading all the drama and just click the following link.

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/all

[tracysaboe]

Yeah. It's a very self contradictory lifestyle simular to all the other environmentalist propaganda.

I wouldn't know.

Tracy

[Lex]

Yeah. It's a very self contradictory lifestyle simular to all the other environmentalist propaganda.

I think that the problems that the environmentalists see are actually there it's the solutions that they come up with that are ass backwards and are usually even more destructive to nature. Most environmentalists are commies and that alone is bad for the environment.

[Money Dollars]

Eat dirt. 

[cathleeninnh]

That's what I was thinking. Either eat the dirt or something that does. Worms?

Cathleen

[Lex]

That's what I was thinking. Either eat the dirt or something that does. Worms?

That's kind of the conclusion I came to. You gotta supplement your veggies with some insects from time to time. My wife isn't thrilled.

The other issue we're currently mulling over is one MD brought up before, what to do during winter?

The Nearings managed somehow in Living the Good Life although from what I understand they traveled a lot during the winter so that made it easier. What if you have to stay put and just live off your land, what do you do then? I suppose a large greenhouse may work well in such a situation...

[aries]

Dont become a vegan, it's a complete sham. PETA may have been founded with drug induced good intentions but now it's a money making scheme. Bad idea to buy in to their propoganda.

A vegetarian diet is acceptable for health reasons but it should be pursued with the guidance of your doctor. Choosing it for "ethical" reasons is absurd and IMO inhuman, do so at your own risk... one of those risks being a lack of certain vitamins and minerals in your diet.

[tracysaboe]

Well if their's enough minerals in the soil, that's not usually a problem.

It's the complete lack of neccessary ammino acids, that a pure vegitarian diet will cause. Now if you combine several you can still get it (Like BEans and Corn) but you're body has to work to build that into protean.

I don't see how it can be healthy. I used to be in track, and I had running mates on my team that were vegitarians. They were constantly getting sick and they got injured more easily it seemed.

Now maybe they were just pansies too. But I think it had more to do with their anti-meat, and therefore anti-protean diet.

Tracy

Tracy

[dalebert]

If you eat insects, you're not vegetarian, right? What do they make the vitamins from? Anyone know?

This B-12 thing is new to me. I'm not anti-vegetarian at all. In fact I used to be one for about 3 years, with a lapse here and there. I'm just curious.

My impression of the amino acid thing was that it's pretty trivial. You don't even need them at the same meal; just roughly within the same day. Most people will eat them by accident actually because they come from food groups that tend to be eaten together, like beans and rice or cereal and milk.

I have heard though that your brain needs things specifically from animal fat that amino acid combos won't fix. Don't know the details of that though so I can't back it up or give references. If I recall, it doesn't need much so it's not like you'd need to eat animal fat every day.

[Lex]

Dont become a vegan, it's a complete sham.

That has always been my and my wifes opinion but we're starting to turn around. I'm still completely open minded so if you can provide some things to backup the claim that humans are supposed to be carnivors/omnivors I will be very interested.

PETA may have been founded with drug induced good intentions but now it's a money making scheme.

Somehow I don't believe that veganism and vegetarianism didn't exist before PETA.

Bad idea to buy in to their propoganda.

I've always thought that PETA promoted not killing animals. This is the first time I'm hearing that they also promote a diet.

A vegetarian diet is acceptable for health reasons but it should be pursued with the guidance of your doctor.

I take what doctors say with the same grain of salt that I take with what PETA says. Both have idealogical and business motives that are not aligned with my own desire to be healthy, self-sufficient and naturally sustainable. Doctors would be out of business if we were all healthy so it is to their advantage to only treat the symptoms and very rarely the causes

Choosing it for "ethical" reasons is absurd and IMO inhuman, do so at your own risk... one of those risks being a lack of certain vitamins and minerals in your diet.

Where did I say that I chose this for "ethical" reasons? Humans kill animals and animals kill humans and most of the time it's not a fair fight (partly because in nature we are mostly helpless and in society we have powerful killing tools). Lack of "certain" vitamins is the purpose of this post and so far the only vitamin that I understand most vegans can be deficient in is B12, unless you don't eat a veriety of vegetables but that's an issue with your diet and not just because you're vegan since you can be a meat eater and have even more vitamin and mineral deficiencies.

[Lex]

I spent all morning researching this more and I'm starting to refine my beliefs. I have gone back to believing that humans are omnivors but in prioritizing what I eat I would say that vegies would still be the main food unless there are no veggies to eat and as a backup I would eat meat. Maybe a 80%-90% veggies diet and 20%-10% meat. This seems very natural for me in colder climate in which we live. I would eat only fresh veggies, fruits, berries, etc for as long as I can during the green months and during winter months I would eat what I can out of the green house and any stored food from summer and then supplament this with fresh meat.

I'm still undecided about what meat but I'm thinking something along the lines of rabbit and/or chicken (domesticated) and other animals from the wild if i ever learn to hunt. I would want something that can be consumed fresh without needing a freezer (vs. a cow/deer for example) and of course I don't want to burn a lot of energy killing, transporting, cutting, cooking, storing the animal than I would get out of actually consuming it (a cow/deer sounds like a lot of work...). I haven't researched this to an extant but I understand that once you consume B12 it can stay in your system for a very long time so if I eat a little bit of meat during the winter months that should be enough B12 for the whole year.

Insects are another option, especially during the summer. Haven't researched the nutritional value of insects but I found a few cook books Man Eating Bugs: The Art and Science of Eating Insects, Creepy Crawly Cuisine: The Gourmet Guide to Edible Insects and Eat-A-Bug Cookbook.

[Lloyd Danforth]

I believe I read in a book called 'One acre and security'  where thr guy raised rabbits.  He built their cage over the container he raised worms in.  He didn't have to clean up after the rabbits and the worms thrived.

[aries]

PETA may have been founded with drug induced good intentions but now it's a money making scheme.

Somehow I don't believe that veganism and vegetarianism didn't exist before PETA.

Vegetarianism did... veganism is less than a century old, as a movement, it really got started with Peta.

[Lex]

PETA may have been founded with drug induced good intentions but now it's a money making scheme.

Somehow I don't believe that veganism and vegetarianism didn't exist before PETA.

Vegetarianism did... veganism is less than a century old, as a movement, it really got started with Peta.

I'm starting to get the impression that this may be the case. The first few things I read about vegans didn't specifically mention animal rights so it seemed logical that it was just a diet of not eating meat but after reading a few vegan forums and things I'm starting to see that the belief is that ethics are primary and diet is secondary.

[aries]

Also, PETA has a whole website dedicated to converting people to veganism:

http://www.goveg.com/index.aspx