NO HUMAN IS ILLEGAL!

[AntonLee]

nothing more than a member grab for the free state project.  Sounds like some of you got this idea from our elected officials.  If you pander to groups that drain and bring down society you'll hopefully gain more members.  After all, you're free to be an anarchist. . . and that's really all this is.  I can see why most of you want them here, those of the free-staters that don't pay taxes don't really have anything to worry about with them, so of course you want to bring the entire world with all their languages and diseases right on in to NH.

I'm drafting a letter of praise for the Senator.  Removing the slave labor from our country should be paramount. 

I grow my own fruit, I don't need an illegal to pick it for me for less than minimum wage. 

[error]

nothing more than a member grab for the free state project.

Uh, no. If it were, it wouldn't be in New Hampshire. You should know what you're talking about before you speak; otherwise your words prove you a fool.

Sounds like some of you got this idea from our elected officials.  If you pander to groups that drain and bring down society you'll hopefully gain more members.  After all, you're free to be an anarchist. . . and that's really all this is.  I can see why most of you want them here, those of the free-staters that don't pay taxes don't really have anything to worry about with them, so of course you want to bring the entire world with all their languages and diseases right on in to NH.

And you should feel free to take your racism and bigotry and get lost.

[AntonLee]

nothing more than a member grab for the free state project.

Uh, no. If it were, it wouldn't be in New Hampshire. You should know what you're talking about before you speak; otherwise your words prove you a fool.

Sounds like some of you got this idea from our elected officials.  If you pander to groups that drain and bring down society you'll hopefully gain more members.  After all, you're free to be an anarchist. . . and that's really all this is.  I can see why most of you want them here, those of the free-staters that don't pay taxes don't really have anything to worry about with them, so of course you want to bring the entire world with all their languages and diseases right on in to NH.

And you should feel free to take your racism and bigotry and get lost.

My 'racism' and 'bigotry' are perfectly legal to speak.  Unfortunately for you, someone like you calling me a fool does nothing but give me more contempt for an organization that says one thing, and does another.  No worries, you all want activists, freedom of expression and thought.  I'm free to understand that the tax money I do pay go to things that I'd like them to. . . since I'm voluntarilly paying it of course.  I don't need nuclear weapons.  I don't need welfare.  I don't need 30 million slaves.  You can fight all you'd like to have every poor and uneducated person in the world to move here.  I'll be standing there against it.  You go sit in at any office and I'll write a letter that day, perhaps I'll even make a phone call.

About the main point, I've seen it in this forum before, where I'm told that I'm a racist BECAUSE having lots of "new freedom lovers" is more important than my parents collecting their share of Social Security.  This isn't just for your types, those libertarians that don't pay taxes, social security, and don't vote.  That's fine with me, don't pay your taxes. . . but don't go looking for handouts.  When you go looking for some welfare, that's when I have a problem.  Shamnesty will no doubt happen because of the loony left, the fearful right and supporters of both (ie- YOU). . . so the social security system that has already been strapped and is going to fall, is going to fall that much faster when the illegal aliens turn collecting age.  So all the money that my parents have put into that system, they won't get back, that is what we're fighting. 

Calling me a bigot and a racist shows me a lot about you. . . but I appreciate that you have an opinion, I just wish some people would stick up for themselves by ways other than namecalling. . . it's quite juvenile and unnecessary. 

[error]

I want no handouts from you or anyone else. It shows a lot about you that you are perfectly willing to misjudge not only an individual, but paint everyone with the same broad brush. But I suppose it makes you feel better about yourself.

And if you're really trying to "save" the welfare system in the dim hope that your parents might get something out of it, you've already lost. The welfare system can't be saved. Even without a single illegal immigrant, it has nowhere to go but utter collapse. The promise of security in retirement was broken before it was made, and the sooner you understand this, the better prepared you'll be for the inevitable.

[mvpel]

I want no handouts from you or anyone else.

But the destitute illegal immigrants do want handouts from you and everyone else, and they take those handouts in the form of emergency room visits, tax-funded education for their children, jail cells for gang members or pension payouts for dead cops, and then sue when states try to prevent it.

[error]

But the destitute illegal immigrants do want handouts from you and everyone else, and they take those handouts in the form of emergency room visits, tax-funded education for their children, jail cells for gang members or pension payouts for dead cops, and then sue when states try to prevent it.

I see no difference between what these people are doing and what the destitute American citizens are doing. All of this rage against the illegals seems to me to be giving the Americans a free pass to take those handouts from me and everyone else by force. You're focused on one small symptom and missing the larger problem.

[AntonLee]

I want no handouts from you or anyone else. It shows a lot about you that you are perfectly willing to misjudge not only an individual, but paint everyone with the same broad brush. But I suppose it makes you feel better about yourself.

And if you're really trying to "save" the welfare system in the dim hope that your parents might get something out of it, you've already lost. The welfare system can't be saved. Even without a single illegal immigrant, it has nowhere to go but utter collapse. The promise of security in retirement was broken before it was made, and the sooner you understand this, the better prepared you'll be for the inevitable.

when it comes time for my parents to get the money they gave to the government to "save" for them, I won't call it welfare then either.

so if you feel something is bound to fail, then we might as well just break it up and hand it out to people that do not deserve to reap it's small benefit?  Do you think that 60 year old illegal aliens aren't going to come across the border and expect some cash beacuse they've reached retirement age?  If one illegal alien takes one cent from social security I will have a problem with it.  The equivalent is you, error, taking a few bucks out of my bank account without my permission.    I wouldn't sit around and let you do that.  I understand that it's going to collapse anyways.  I'd rather it net my parents a few checks to at least make up for their 50 years of working. . . . better my parents than someone who is literally scamming our own system. 

I'm plenty prepared, I'm just not going to sit around while this wrong takes root.

[lildog]

But the destitute illegal immigrants do want handouts from you and everyone else, and they take those handouts in the form of emergency room visits, tax-funded education for their children, jail cells for gang members or pension payouts for dead cops, and then sue when states try to prevent it.

I see no difference between what these people are doing and what the destitute American citizens are doing. All of this rage against the illegals seems to me to be giving the Americans a free pass to take those handouts from me and everyone else by force. You're focused on one small symptom and missing the larger problem.

Right or wrong Americans by being citizens are entitled to those things.  Someone coming here without following the rules we set forth taking advantage of those same entitlements is apprehensible.

So you are right that there is a second problem, ie entitlements but that doesn't excuse the fact people are coming here illegally.

Look at it this way, if someone asks to crash over your house you may very well be ok with it.  If they ask to move in and pay their share of the cost of running the house and agree to pay for their own food and their own bills likewise you may be ok with it.  But that isn't what we are talking about here... illegals are the equivalent of someone moving into your house without even bothering to ask you then not paying anything toward the bills and eating your food on top of it.

[error]

So, right or wrong doesn't matter, as long as it's a "law"? Fuck that.

[AntonLee]

So, right or wrong doesn't matter, as long as it's a "law"? Fuck that.

someone taking my money is wrong.  I choose to allow the government to take my money, in turn they choose not to throw me in jail for today (until they find something else on me). . . . while I give over my money to the government to use as they please, I don't have a say in that besides my vote.  I will tell my elected reps that my vote means a lot to me and hope that they'll create policy and laws that mesh with my own personal values. 

I don't agree with people coming from other countries in order to use our country for money making purposes. . . we have plenty of those here in our country.  What it seems you want to do, is allow more people to come here and use welfare and entitlements in order for it to collapse.  I want to prevent and remove a large portion of people from becoming automatic beneficieries of these welfare and entitlements instead. 

[lildog]

Error some benefits of being a US citizen are justified.  Just because you walked over a border should not allow you to be entitled to those benefits and the benefits go far far far beyond just government handouts.

For instance, someone who doesn't understand freedom will never vote for it and support it (just look at Iraq), so why should we give them the right to vote in our elections?  That after all is one of the rights that comes with being a legal US citizen.

[Brock]

Hey, lildog, don't look now but undocumented workers are a net gain to states like Texas.  If you want to oppose anyone crossing an imaginary line in the sand, oppose it because they provide too much funding to state coffers.

[lildog]

Clearly this is one issue that Anarchists such as yourself and Constitutionalists such as myself will never see eye to eye.  I like Hamilton see letting everyone freely walk into the country at will with no rules or guidelines established for their entry as the equivalent of wheeling in the large wood horse.

I would be interested in reading evidence of your statement that they are a net gain to Texas because everything I've read suggests the opposite.

Case in point:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=19293
http://media.www.dailytitan.com/media/storage/paper861/news/2007/06/26/Opinion/Illegal.Immigration.Is.A.Drain.On.Our.Economy-2918450.shtml?refsource=collegeheadlines
http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=260577274925923

A study by the Lone Star Foundation in Austin, Texas, says illegal aliens drain $4.5 billion from the Texas economy alone, mostly in health care costs.

And as we admit these people seeking these free services and we begin allowing them to vote what do you  think they are going to support?  More freedom and liberty?  Or more "free" services like education and health care?

Why do you think our country is over flowing with politicians who trip over themselves to promise more and more ways of spending the money of others?

[lowen]

A large wooden horse? If people walk in whenever they wanted without guidelines for their entry, besides follow the laws of the land (liberty, baby!), then they will live like us--in liberty and peace. If anyone on the inside (immigrant or not) tries to create a form of government that goes against our rights, then we will resist. How exactly is this a trojan horse situation? How will these people harm us?

[FTL_Ian]

Error some benefits of being a US citizen are justified.

Initiating force on others is never justified.   

Besides that, there is no such thing as a US citizen.  Citizens owe a duty of allegiance to the government in return for protection services.  As the government has ruled time and time again that it does not have an obligation to protect, therefore there can be no citizenship.  In addition, no one ever was given the opportunity to consent to such an agreement in the first place, effectively rendering the concept null and void.