Incident that happened on 8/25/08 need advice/help *updates 7/07/09*

[leetninja]

I'm not sure where to turn and a friend pointed me in this direction.  So any help is appreciated.  A bit long story but please bear with me.

I need some help and advice.

I live in NH. Zip code 03079 just in case that helps.  We have open carry obviously.


A good friend and neighbor of mine's property was being vandalized today. I walked over and asked the teens what they thought they were doing. One kid had jumped the fence and by the time I got there after observing him throwing water jugs and smashing things against the house, had a gas can in one hand and a lighter in the other. He had already thrown things around, smashed things up, and basically just done whatever he wanted to the property. I was showing up a bit late to the party I guess...

My girlfriend was already calling police as we have done in the past. It is a "recreation area" at the lake so they seem to take their time each and every time. This time is a bit different as you will hear.

So, the kids start mouthing off (as punk kids do) and I calmly explain that it is private property and that they need to leave. three of them on my side of the fence start saying "lets kick his ass" to each other and they drop their bikes and start coming towards me. I have my weapon secure and holstered and not even a round in the tube. I lift my shirt (even though it was visible to begin with) and say "Probably not the best idea" they stop dead in their tracks and a round of "holy sh*t"s go around the group. I said "yea ... holy sh*t now LEAVE and don't come back understand?" the one kid across the fence starts saying "what are you gunna do about it" I said "ask your friends" and they start saying "hes gotta gun lets get the fu*k out of here shut the fu*k up" etc. At this point this kid's grandmother who must be around 60 rolls up in her car asking what the problem is. I calmly explain it to her, she doesn't seem to care. She is more interested in me using the word "fu*k" and telling her grand son to shut up while he is still mouthing off to me in front of her. She tells me I can not talk to her grandson that way. I actually apologize and ask her to please understand that what he was doing is wrong and illegal. At this point her grandson says "he has a fuc*in gun!" and I ignored him and she didn't seem to really notice what he had said since she was in the middle of lecturing me. She continued lecturing me on how to not talk to her grandson. I said listen, he needs to be disciplined maybe you should go do that" and I walked away. As I was walking away she yelled "it's not your yard what do you care"

About 10 minutes after this. The police show up at my house and enter my yard. They demand my weapon. I tell them I do not have it on me and that it is in the house. They insist I give them the weapon and keep asking me where is the weapon. I repeat myself and I say "sir I understand this is a tense situation to come into but please feel free to search me and you will see that i have no firearm on me at this time. i also have a license to carry" I put my hands out to my side and spread my legs etc and he searches me and then asks me what happened. I tell him. He wants to "see the gun" I explain to him I don't understand why he would need to see my weapon. He asks nicely for it. I explain where it is in the house. My girlfriend starts to head in saying "oh ill get it!" and i yell "No! Please stop" and turn to the officer and say "I'm sorry sir. You have permission to enter my home to obtain my firearm. It is on the table to the left of the door in it's holster and it does not have a safety and does not have a round in the chamber. The kitchen table will be to your left, the light switch is on your right near the fridge."

The officer enters my home and comes out with the weapon as described. He asks me if i am sure there is nothing in the chamber and i explain that i have not racked the gun since last week at the range and that there is no round in the chamber. He then ejects the mag (didn't seem to know how i had to help him) and then clears the chamber 10 times. Yes, TEN. As more of the story is being given I am being lectured about how I am not an officer and how my LTC could be pulled and I could be charged with "criminal threatening" amongst other things.

I explain i understand the risks of entering situations like that and worse etc and that I understand that I am not an officer and not a vigilante etc. I tell them that it would be an absolute last resort for me to use my firearm in a defensive manner and that I am not a violent person and that they can review my history or lack of if they wish.

I also explain and preface with "I know its not you and its nothing against the department but every time we have called we have not gotten a fast response. Also that every time the police are called they don't show up until the kids have left about 19 out of 20 times. Finally, that the one or two times that an officer has caught them he doesn't seem to do anything about it as far as arresting or placing charges and that it doesn't stop this behavior.

They couldn't possibly care less. They said it is traffic related and that we are far from the police department etc. After about 5 cruisers, multiple questionings, and a round table of 8+ officers discussing this hush hush I am told I need to fill a report.

I was told a long time ago never to fill a report without the consult of a lawyer. I am a bit paranoid/skeptical about doing so without a lawyer but I did anyhow against my better judgment. I did so because the officers seemed to understand WHY I did what I did. I was very clear in the report about what happened. How it was safe, secure, holstered and not brandished or pointed etc etc etc.

A big problem I have with it is that the grandmother who had no idea I had or have firearms made a report that I pulled my weapon and that I racked the slide. This is also what the punks are saying as well. Completely untrue. I have a witness or three to back me up as well that this didn't happen. Yet the officers wanted to have me write a written report. That is one thing that confuses me a bit. They say it is just for record in case anything happens to my house or me etc. I think that smells like BS but ... you tell me.

So the other things are: I know what I did and what I didn't do as explained above. BUT what exactly are my rights here? If a group of older teens are threatening me etc and making motions and statement towards me that I feel as though I am at reasonable risk can I draw my weapon? Can this be considered "criminal threatening"? Or can I lose my LTC over this or worse? Did I do anything wrong?

I know there are a million ways to handle the situation but I am so sick of seeing these punks ruining our neighborhood and their parents doing nothing about it. Keeping in mind it is the same group of punks they have broken into 6 houses on several occasions. Stolen money and other items. They have burned my neighbor's furniture, smashed his house up, stolen firewood and set it ablaze on a private member's only beach, and smashed out windows on other places. It gets ridiculous after a while with nothing being done about it.

[J’raxis 270145]

First, welcome to the forum.

You were right, initially, that you shouldn't've filled out any paperwork without consulting a lawyer. They may very well be collecting evidence to bring some sort of charges against you, and lied, in order to get you to fill out the report. Lying in furtherance of an investigation is something that cops do, often, and has been approved of by the Supreme Court.

They had no legal right to entry into your house in order to get your gun. No warrant, no entry.

Take a look at Dave Ridley's open carry incident. Provided you're not in control of a motor vehicle at the time, all you're legally required to do in New Hampshire is give your name and city of residence; any other questioning or requests, without the presence of a lawyer, can and should be met with "am I free to go?" or "am I being detained?". (If you're in control of a motor vehicle, they can demand other things like your license, registration, and a breathylizer test.)

RSA 627 covers the use of physical force in defense of property and people.

[Porcupine_in_MA]

I don't even think it was lawful for them to walk onto his law and demand his gun.

[Porcupine_in_MA]

Happenings like this make me all the more sure that there needs to be more open carrying in very southern New Hampshire.

[J’raxis 270145]

I don't even think it was lawful for them to walk onto his law and demand his gun.

If they're actually investigating a crime, I think they're allowed to do so under Terry v. Ohio. Doesn't mean it's right, but it's legal.

[MengerFan]

Thank you for standing up for your neighbors. Welcome to the forum.

Please watch this video explaining why you never should talk to police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

[Lex]

You should try to get them doing these things on video. It would be safer and more useful in the long run than confronting them with a gun. Send the video to your local news station, the police and of course the property owners! Let them deal with it, the video will help them a lot more than you shooting one of these punks.

[Dave Ridley]

Thanks for sticking up for your neighbors.  Too bad the blue light gang apparently doesn't like your neighbors being safe.  what town are you in?

next time I hope you'll call porcupine 411 as soon as the police show up if not sooner.  If you just record what they do the world becomes a slightly better place for us all.  but you do need to always inform them you're recording, and be aware they may try to stop you and might even be able to arrest you for doing it.    Recording should always be looked at as an act of civil disobedience.   getting it on camera is even better than getting the audio broadcast. 

however  I'm at least glad you got in touch with us.  i may do a ridleo about this.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Salem

[FreelanceFreedomFighter]

I don't even think it was lawful for them to walk onto his law and demand his gun.

If they're actually investigating a crime, I think they're allowed to do so under Terry v. Ohio. Doesn't mean it's right, but it's legal.

The Terry case said that an officer could frisk someone on the street to check for weapons without a warrant or arresting them in order to insure the officer's safety. It also said that if an illegal weapon were found incidental to that frisk, that there was no violation of 4th or 5th amendment rights and the illegal weapon was admissible as evidence. Since leetninja volunteered to be frisked by the officers and was not armed, the officers' safety was assured. At that point, the officer had no other abilities to enter the house or any non-public assessable area without a warrant. Never give permission, even tacitly, for an officer to enter or search your home, vehicle, or private property. Even if you believe you don't have anything to hide, realize that the officer's job is to find things which are at worst illegal, at best questionable. And you WILL be questioned.

I don't know the laws of NH fully on this. Contact a good attorney specializing in NH firearms law. You may also want to look at/contact pro-gun new hampshire. http://www.pgnh.org/ Please check out their FAQ pages. In answer to one of the FAQs, it states:

Q: Can I carry a pistol or revolver openly, say in an exposed belt holster?

A: Yes. Furthermore, you do not need a License to Carry (the piece of paper says "Pistol/Revolver License") to carry a loaded handgun UNconcealed — that is, visible, for example in an exposed holster — unless you're in a vehicle. (See the previous answer about vehicles.)

Keep in mind that some people may panic when they see a gun, and if they call the police, the police may come to investigate — but the New Hampshire Attorney General's office has made it clear that open carry is a right, and that another person's "annoyance and alarm" doesn't supersede that right.

From that, it appears that you just need to maintain your position (the truth) that you never brandished or drew your weapon. Then, the kid's (and scummy granny's) "annoyance and alarm" don't supersede your right to carry.

[MattLeft]

If you are in any confrontation where others see your gun, you draw it, etc. you need to be the first one on the phone to the cops.  I know calling the cops for help is distasteful to most here, but you're not calling for aide, you're calling to establish first who the victim and who the offender is.  Generally speaking, if you call the cops 1st, you are perceived as the victim, and thus are far less likely to get shot, tazed, frisked, harassed, oppressed, etc.

[dalebert]

If lots of people got in the habit of open-carrying and coming to the defense of our neighbors, their monopoly would be threatened. Worse yet, people would start to question the need for them at all since they spend most of their time and the money they stole from us creating stress for innocent people.

[leetninja]

First, welcome to the forum.

You were right, initially, that you shouldn't've filled out any paperwork without consulting a lawyer. They may very well be collecting evidence to bring some sort of charges against you, and lied, in order to get you to fill out the report. Lying in furtherance of an investigation is something that cops do, often, and has been approved of by the Supreme Court.

They had no legal right to entry into your house in order to get your gun. No warrant, no entry.

RSA 627 covers the use of physical force in defense of property and people.

I used to study criminal law in MA when I was younger thanks to a family friend who was a lawyer but that was MA and this is NH and never anything with gun laws etc.  The whole thing is I know a lot of officers that openly say that if a person is co-operative it is less of an issue and if they are not they just automatically assume guilt and their friendly tone etc goes away and they just LOOK for a reason to get the un-copperative "jerk" civilian on something and then an arrest follows just as quickly. 

I'm a big quiet guy but I don't take anyone's crap.  Knowing what you tell me now I would probably be inclined to say "My name is _______ and I live in Salem" like what I saw in that video (which was epic by the way) and that would be about it regarding the weapon.  Though I didn't have it on me at the time.  They were probably more concerned about the conflicting reports than anything else.  They had me calling reporting a B&E and attempted arson and these kids and granny calling saying I pulled a weapon on them and racked the gun.  I can understand *why* they would want to see the weapon I guess is what I am saying. 

It looks like I am within limits according to the RSA you linked me to. Especially  627:4  and 627:7 which mentions arson and 627:8.  

Punk kid with a lighter in one hand and a large gas can belonging to the neighbor in another the math there is pretty simple.

I am a lot less worried about the police trying to bring charges against me in this situation than I was last night when I posted but I'm still just a little worried.  I am probably going to get copies of all the police reports etc just for record and in case anything happens.  Last I checked it is all public record. 

It is worth noting that the majority of the officers seemed to have a genuine understanding of why i did what i did and i made it clear verbally and in my report i wish i never filed that i only showed the weapon because three of them became hostile and were moving towards me verbally stating they were going to kick my ass.  Teenagers or not it would be 3 on 1.  The only reason I even filled out the report was because at the beginning of everything my LTC was brought up and how I could lose it and I don't want that.  I know I can fall back on open carry but I just like my LTC and don't want it to be taken away.

I'm actually not seeing too many ways for the police to spin this against me.  You never know though.   I do have friends of friends on the Salem police force and they are already putting in at least a call or two that I know of.  So hopefully it will all blow over.  If anything does happen you guys will be the first to know

[doobie]

I'd have gone over there open carrying in the first place and not pulled it out on display.  You are legal to OC in NH esp on private property. 

Pulling it out and showing it in what could be construed as a threatening manner less so, but you may still have been within your legal right. 

If you believe in lawyers I would get one.

In theory I don't think they could pull your permit, but there was a case where someone put copies of his license on co-workers desks and he lost his permit.

But just cuz you lose your permit doesn't mean you can't carry (but it'll be on your record of losing it)... You can still open carry and owe firearms.  I think you can even conceal carry in your work place and home even without the permit.

And with luck we won't have permits in the next year and everyone will be able to OC or CC.

[Dave Ridley]

it would help if someone could post contact info for salem pd and we could start making expressing our concern for leet. right now i'm busy workign on the video