Incident that happened on 8/25/08 need advice/help *updates 7/07/09*

[Russell Kanning]

u r right again my friend

[DigitalWarrior]

"had a gas can in one hand and a lighter in the other. "

This represents a reasonable and immediate threat to your life and the lives of others, as such it warrants the application of deadly force.  I would have handled things a bit different from here from that point.  My actions would have been to command to freeze while the weapon is pointed at the ground.  If I had a cell, I would have called 911 and spoke with them as long as it did not distract me too bad.  Otherwise I would have been screaming my lungs out for help...

You also had a reason to fear grave bodily injury by being attacked by multiple assailants.  Your choice to display instead of killing them was responsible and level-headed.

You were wholly wrong in just about everything you did after that.  Call the cops.  Ask them to wait for the police.  Tell the grandmother that the police will straighten this all out.  Keep the weapon with you.  Tell the first police officer exactly what you saw and why you had reason to fear for your life or the lives of others, since you are the complaining witness, then refuse to make further comment without the benefit of counsel.  Never ever give consent to search or enter property. 

If you interact with your firearm in public, then always call the cops.  I realize I am a statist compared to everyone else here, but oh well.

You should call a lawyer right now.  I think the FSP has a gun rights lawyer I think.  call now.

You shouldn't be reading this line because you should be on the phone getting a lawyer. 

[doobie]

1) Never write or sign anything.  Say as little as possible.  If they want more you need a lawyer.  You are innocent.  So long as you remain innocent you have nothing to prove without a lawyer.
2) No warrant, no entry to house or vehicle; no confiscation of of any personal property.
3) Having been open carrying would have worked better than uncovering and saying, "I don't think so" or whatever.
4) If you have a hunting permit, carry a rifle with you.  If anything happens, "You were hunting."  or if it is a 22 rifle, "You were knocking off the squirrels" when you noticed some hoodlums trespassing on your neighbours property and you went to disuade them.
5) Any incident with your firearm...be the first person to call 911.

Having provided them with a statement, I hope you know exactly what is in it... if you deviate from it in the future, they could bust you on that.

[leetninja]

it would help if someone could post contact info for salem pd and we could start making expressing our concern for leet. right now i'm busy workign on the video

I appreciate all the help and everything especially the RSA link and general input. 

As it stands right now they have no done anything to me.  If they do I will let you guys know.  More than one officer said (lying or not who knows) that it would just be kept on file because they want to bust these kids badly and if anything happens to me or my property they will know it is retaliation etc.  They know these kids and they know they are trouble and they know they are wrong and I'm not. 

Hopefully I can just let the dust settle and it all goes away.  If not I will certainly start making some noise etc and you guys can put all the phonecalls and letters in that you like.  I am tempted to myself.  for now that I am going with the keep my mouth shut and let it go away theory on things.

I'm pretty confident that I was well within my legal rights.  Especially because I was threatened with physical violence.  Nothing wrong with defensively showing that you have protection right?

Also, this occurred on public property as it was on a street.  These kids were one or two houses down (small lots) and i happened to be checking my mail when they rolled up on bikes and one hopped the fence and started smashing things.

[MaineShark]

I'm pretty confident that I was well within my legal rights.  Especially because I was threatened with physical violence.  Nothing wrong with defensively showing that you have protection right?

Being threatened is actually not relevant, here.  They had a gas can and a lighter, which means you were fully justified in using deadly force to stop them from committing arson.  (in general, under the law, you cannot threaten deadly force if you are not actually justified in using it - since you were, you're fine)

Joe

[MaineShark]

I don't even think it was lawful for them to walk onto his law and demand his gun.

If they're actually investigating a crime, I think they're allowed to do so under Terry v. Ohio. Doesn't mean it's right, but it's legal.

Interestingly, Terry only deals with searches.  It does not allow them to seize your weapon.  The theory is that the officer needs to know that you are armed, for his safety, so he is allowed to search you if he has a reasonable, articulable suspicion or belief that you are committing a crime.

To seize your weapon, he would still need to meet the standards (generally, probable cause, which is a higher standard than reasonable, articulable suspicion) that apply to seizure of property.

A further interesting note is that if someone wanted to push the issue, open carry should protect you from further search.  If the officer knows that you are armed, because you are carrying openly, the legal theory behind Terry should no longer apply.  Of course, that does not mean that you might not have to fight it all the way to the Supreme Court to make your case, or that those punks might not just rule the other way out of spite.  But based upon a consistent application of the legal theory behind Terry, you should (theoretically speaking) win that one...

Joe

[AntonLee]

Salem, NH Police Department non-emergency line

9 Veterans Memorial Parkway
Salem, NH 03079
Main Telephone: (603) 893-1911

Chief Paul T. Donovan

To report a crime in progress, dial 9-1-1.

If you are reporting a crime that has occurred in the past and is not an emergency, dial the main number at (603) 893-1911.

To obtain a copy of a police report, contact the Records Unit at (603) 890-2332.

To speak with someone in Prosecution, call (603) 890-2340.

To schedule a detail officer, call (603) 890-2382 during normal business hours. All other times, contact (603) 893-1911.

To speak with the Property/Evidence Officer, call (603) 890-2323.

To contact the Investigative Services Unit, call (603) 890-2310.

Or you can use the Town of Salem online form.

The Salem Police Department DOES NOT accept reports of crimes via this web site.

[J’raxis 270145]

I am a lot less worried about the police trying to bring charges against me in this situation than I was last night when I posted but I'm still just a little worried.  I am probably going to get copies of all the police reports etc just for record and in case anything happens.  Last I checked it is all public record. 

Indeed. RSA 91-A. Another excellent law to know.

[Russell Kanning]

cool ... I hope things turn out decent for you

[leetninja]

Today has been a day of horribleness.  Let me start with this: so far the police have done NOTHING to me.  They have also done nothing FOR me or the other victims and witnesses.

Today at around 2:10pm a white male came to my front gate and started screaming in front of witnesses to "Get the fu*k out here", "Get outside", "Get outside now you fat fu*k" etc you get the idea.  I obliged a few minutes later with weapon at my side as usual.  He asked me "Why was a gun pulled on my fu*king friend" and I replied "Were you there yesterday?"
***IMPORTANT*** MY GIRLFRIEND CALLS THE POLICE AND IS PUT ON HOLD at 2:14 PM
He replies "No I wasnt" and I say "well then who is your friend? which one?" he says "None of your business" and I say "Well I guess I don't need to give an explanation to a little sh*t like you - get the fu*k out of here and don't come back! understand?"
His response was "You won't like what happens to you" and I say "Oh yea? what will happen little boy?" he fires back with "I'm going to fu*king kill you and your fu*king wife (girlfriend) and your fu*king dog and then burn your fu*king house to the ground!"

I thank him and call the police. It is now 2:16 PM at 3:00pm an officer officer shows up.  

I explain to him what happened yesterday and leading into today.  He seems like he wants to nail these kids.  At that moment they pop out of an easement, see me and the cop, and run.  He chases them and he brings them back in front of me.  He interrogates them and even allows me to interject my thoughts and call them out on their BS stories and excuses.  One of which was "How exactly did you report that I had racked my gun and pointed it at you if it never left the holster!?"  The kid stated that "you didn't rack it"  I said "So you lied on your police report then?" he looked at the officer, and the officer just stared at him and said "Well?"  he said "you didn't rack your weapon.  but you pointed it at me! i was scared!" I then said "Good. Liar."  It felt great to be honest.  At this point the officer used intimidation tactics like arrest and filing false police reports to get the kids to give up the name of the little punk that threatened me but they still lied about knowing him, and lied about his whereabouts etc.  The officer threatened to arrest one for criminal trespassing yesterday and then the kid said "he is down there" blah blah blah and gave a first name.  The officer couldn't find the kid that had threatened me and he left.  He said he would be in the area and if i need to call back if they do anything to do so.  

At about 4:15 PM the same kids that denied knowing the kid threatening me, rolled past on their bikes, WITH THE KID THAT THREATENED ME and reaffirmed their threats in front of 15+ witnesses.  The police were called AGAIN at 4:17PM and told me someone would "Call me" I said on recorded dispatch "I'm sure a phone call will save my life right?"

The kids kept circling the block on their bikes and I called the police AGAIN at 4:26 PM.  I demanded that an officer come out immediately and that i was in fear for my life and well being and my family as well as my property.  An hour later an officer rolled up.  He told me that he would not do anything other than pass the information along and that he hasn't seen the kids and he has "been here for around an hour" a neighbor piped up and said "well officer they are right there looking at all of us so do you see them now?" He told the guy to go home.  I explained to him that what they are doing is criminal and i want them arrested.  that the kids lying and falsifying documents along with granny, AND that this should be considered conspiring to commit homicide and arson as they have stated such in front of witnesses.  He would do nothing.  I asked if I could detain them the next time i was threatened until the police decided it was convenient to show up and was told no.  Citizens Arrest comes to mind here?
I asked what I could do and he replied "You can do anything in self defense if you are in fear of your life"  I let him know that I feel as though threats to burn my house and kill my family etc are placing me and my neighbors all in fear of our lives.  He replied "You can do anything in self defense if you are in fear of your life"  I let it go.  Several neighbors were begging him to do something about them he wouldn't do anything and then left.

I am now waiting to see what comes next.

[KBCraig]

Get video. Lots of it. Tell them they're being audio recorded, and tape away.

[AntonLee]

when you need them, they're not helpful.

[DigitalWarrior]

DO you have money for a video camera?  If not, I will buy one and lend it to you. 

AND WHY THE HELL HAVEN"T YOU CALLED LAWYERS?!?!?!?!??!!!!???!!?!??!!!!  Restraining orders come to mind (since you already have the immediate defense of your life thing handled). 

LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER

PS.
If you are interested, it might be funny to have an open carry (litter pickup|non-alcoholic party) in Salem this weekend.

PPS
LAWYER looks like a funny word.

[DigitalWarrior]

Also, put up a sign right now that says you may be video and audio recorded.

I live one town over, and I do not want that crap happening anywhere in my state, let alone in my back yard.  And especially not to a FSP member/freedom oriented person (if you were lucky enough to be born in the Free State). 

If you want my contact info, please write me at DigitalWarrior@gmail.com.  I cannot get Porc911 messages quick enough since they come in WAVs and the gmail app will not play it.

[leetninja]

DO you have money for a video camera?  If not, I will buy one and lend it to you. 

AND WHY THE HELL HAVEN"T YOU CALLED LAWYERS?!?!?!?!??!!!!???!!?!??!!!!  Restraining orders come to mind (since you already have the immediate defense of your life thing handled). 

LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER, LAWYER

PS.
If you are interested, it might be funny to have an open carry (litter pickup|non-alcoholic party) in Salem this weekend.

PPS
LAWYER looks like a funny word.

I am looking into lawyers actually because of all of this.  

I am also trying to find more information on Citizen's Arrest.  I want to know what is within my rights.  The officer said "anything in defense when in fear for my life" etc.  Well if this kid threatens me I have reasonable fear for my life.  Thus I can do what is necessary to defend myself according to the law.

Unfortunately my girlfriend made the mistake of leaving my nice digital camera on the table and my dog decided at that moment to be a chewer while we were gone.  So I am left with no digital camera.  Money is a little tight right now so I cant just go and buy one even though I want to quite badly.  Probably within a few weeks I will be able to scrounge the money to buy it.  I have always steered clear of credit cars etc so lol

I wouldn't mind the party but I think some of the older aged neighbors might.  On top of that, it's not a problem with the neighbors it's a problem with these little punks.  Granted they are technically neighborhood kids but they all have parents that couldn't give less of a crap about what they do or don't do.  The people here have now taken to arming themselves after today.  Several of my neighbors came to ask me what firearm I carry, what I recommend etc and where to go.  I gave them some recommendations and was later shown some new firearms and brand new Sig and even a Kimber.  One neighbor was very clear with the officer that he purchased a firearm after yesterday's incident and that if they come onto his property and are breaking into his house or threatening him like they are me etc not to doubt what the shots fired call would be about and to just come with the coroner.  Ballsy statement to make but it got the point across.

Also I guess the word is right now that no charges will be filed on me especially given that these kids are known around here and I have a lot of support on my side and witnesses etc.  No evidence points to me doing anything illegal since I well ... didn't do anything illegal.  Also the cops seem in a way to want to really get them on this crap.  

I am a bit torn on the whole thing with whether or not to "co-operate" with police.  I see and even agree with the points made in the movie about not talking to cops, and I love the video from outside the tap room!  BUT not everyone has a camera and not everyone has a crowd and not everyone has a phone with the magic number to broadcast it etc.  Being belligerent may not get me where I want to be?  Being co-operative wont either though?  It seems to be a lose-lose situation with this whole thing.

By law all I have to say is "My name is _____________ and I live in Salem" but that will make the officer very stand offish if he isn't already and then he can trump up any charge he wants and haul me in.  Sucks.