Civil Disobedience

[Michael Fisher]

I like the Postal Service idea; here's why.

In my neighborhood we had been leaving flyers in neighbors mailboxes telling of events and parties and distributing phone lists. We came to find out that when this was discoverd by the USPS mail carrier they were removed and discarded, and a note was left saying that it was illegal for anyone but the USPS to leave anything in the mailbox because it is FEDERAL PROPERTY! Did you get that? The mailboxes we buy and pay to install on our property? belong to the Feds! I haven't investigated this claim so I don't know if they are correct, but, it certainly ticks me off!

My $0.02

Ed

From Wikipedia:

In the 1840's Lysander Spooner started the commercially successful American Letter Mail Company which competed with the United States Post Office by providing lower rates. He was successfully challenged by the U.S. government and exhausted his resources trying to defend what he believed to be his right to compete.


A very good, short history of Spooner's fight with the USPS which resulted in the total ban on private mail delivery:

Lysander Spooner vs. U.S. Postal System
http://www.lysanderspooner.org/STAMP3.htm

[Michael Fisher]

Okay, I really think this mail delivery thing can work.  I'm still looking for the exact law now, but there is a proven history of harsh government response to private mail delivery.

One boy in Rochester, NY was threatened with imprisonment if he continued his venture of mailing Christmas cards for $0.10 each.

This is definitely going to work to our advantage.  I think we should go with this or the licensing idea and get going ASAP.

I'll start a poll...

[Michael Fisher]

I've found the exact laws in the "Postal Code of 1872" that created the monopoly.  These are the laws we would be violating.  I'm not sure where these laws are at in the US Code, but this is where I found them.

http://www.jcampbell.com/Reference/us/187206_code.pdf

SEC. 200. That all the waters of the United States shall be post-roads during the time the mail is carried thereon, as provided in section two hundred and nineteen.
SEC. 201. That all railways and parts of railways which are now or hereafter may be put in operation are hereby declared to be post-roads.
SEC. 202. That all canals during the time the mail is carried thereon are hereby declared to be post-roads.
SEC. 203. That all plank-roads during the times the mail is carried thereon are hereby declared to be post-roads.
SEC. 205. That all letter carrier routes established in any city or town, for the collection and delivery of mail-matter by carriers, are hereby declared to be post-roads.

(Declaring everything a "post-road" was a trick used to eliminate private mail delivery. See Sec. 228.)

SEC. 227. That any person concerned in carrying the mail, who shall collect, receive, or carry any letter or packet, or cause or procure the same to be done, contrary to law, shall, on conviction thereof, for every such offence, forfeit and pay not exceeding fifty dollars.

SEC. 228. That no person shall establish any private express for the conveyance of letters or packets or in any manner cause or provide for the conveyance of the same by regular trips or at stated periods, over any post-route which is or may be established by law, or from any city, town or place to any other city, town or place between which the mail is regularly carried; and every person so offending, or aiding or assisting therein, shall for each offence, forfeit and pay one hundred and fifty dollars.

SEC. 229. That the owner of every stage-coach, railway car, steamboat or other vehicle or vessel, which shall, with the knowledge of any owner in whole or in part, or with the knowledge or connivance of the driver, conductor, master or other person having charge of the same, convey any such person acting or employed as a private express for the conveyance of letters or packets and actually in possession of the same for the purpose of conveying them contrary to the spirit, true intent, and meaning of this law shall, for every such offence, forfeit and pay one hundred and fifty dollars.

SEC. 230. That no person shall transmit by private express or other unlawful means, or deliver to any agent of such unlawful express, or deposit, or cause to be deposited, at any appointed place, for the purpose of being transmitted, any letter or packet, and for every such offence the party so offending shall forfeit and pay fifty dollars.


That's pretty clear if you ask me.

[elk]

Then how does UPS, Fedex, etc. get away with it?

Ed

I've found the exact laws in the "Postal Code of 1872" that created the monopoly.  These are the laws we would be violating.  I'm not sure where these laws are at in the US Code, but this is where I found them.

SEC. 228. That no person shall establish any private express for the conveyance of letters or packets or in any manner cause or provide for the conveyance of the same by regular trips or at stated periods, over any post-route which is or may be established by law, or from any city, town or place to any other city, town or place between which the mail is regularly carried; and every person so offending, or aiding or assisting therein, shall for each offence, forfeit and pay one hundred and fifty dollars.

That's pretty clear if you ask me.

[Michael Fisher]

Then how does UPS, Fedex, etc. get away with it?

Ed

They do not deliver letters.  The USPS holds a monopoly on first-class letters and third-class junk mail.

[Neo Hantoni]

I very much like the letter delivery services.

It is risky of course.  If it ends in litigation, those involved risk losing their shirts.

On the other hand, there may a good chance of winning the case on 10th amendment grounds if the service delivers only within New Hampshire, and complies with all New Hampshire law.  Understanding the relevent case law would be in order.

Something else to consider... if this is just a couple of guys transporting letters between Manchester and Concord as a stunt, I don't think it will get any attention.  Need to turn this into a business.  There is opportunity for in-state delivery.  Bills, for example, I send at least half a dozen to New Hampshire addresses every month, and a significant percentage of letters I receive are also from New Hampshire addresses.  Multiply by 400,000 households.  That's the market.  Win the case, and franchise to all 50 states.

[FTL_Ian]

Maybe you could get the private carriers to fund the lawsuit... 

[elk]

But the law mentions "packet" which is just another way of saying package.

Then how does UPS, Fedex, etc. get away with it?

Ed

They do not deliver letters.  The USPS holds a monopoly on first-class letters and third-class junk mail.

[Michael Fisher]

This is not about lawsuits or court battles.? This is about causing the government to react in a way that makes us suffer and which shows the government's unjust brutality.? This forces the government to change its own laws.

We cannot win in court.? Federal mail delivery is in the US Constitution, so we cannot win on any grounds.? Everyone who has tried has failed.

Mail delivery is in the US Constitution, so the US Constitution is wrong.? Do not take the side of the Constitution or we will be torn apart and fail.

Plead guilty to all charges.? Refuse to pay bail.? Anything else is a dishonest way out of our suffering, but we must remember that we are suffering on purpose.

Civil disobedience is a way of creating change by NOT cooperating with the law.

[Neo Hantoni]

Well, as the article you posted stated, mail delivery is in the constitution, but it does not grant a monopoly.  The monopoly is in statute, and Congress has no such jursidiction inside the sovereign state of New Hampshire.

Anyway, I doubt they'll come and arrest you for delivering a few pieces of paper.  Go with the the shampoo shop.  Its easy to do and easy to advertise.  Plus, you will be able to get local press.

[Neo Hantoni]

If the goal is to force the bad guys to play their hand, you have to make them mad.  You have to violate "their" turf in a meaningful way.  If you want to get arrested, go to your local post office and exercise your right to free speech on post office property.  Maybe do that April 15.  If you do that in Manchester tomorrow, you WILL be arrested.

[Michael Fisher]

This is not about being arrested alone.  Plenty of anti-war protestors and anti-tax protestors are arrested for various reasons, but do you know any of their names?  Have their actions created any effect?  Probably not.

It's about harmlessly violating an unjust law to cause a reaction, such as an arrest, that makes the public side with you instead of the government.

I'll be honest with you right now.  The only defense I will give is a defense of my principles.  The constitution alllows the government to create a postal service, therefore it is wrong, regardless of whether it grants a monopoly.  I will not, in my own defense, use the constitution or any law that recognizes my right to do what I ought to be free to do.

There are several examples where the federal government has strongly defended "their" mailboxes and "their right" to be the sole mail-delivery service.  They WILL react.  We are in complete control, and we will make sure that they react.

If they do not react, which happened with Gandhi's resistance in which he walked to the sea to create salt, then we will follow his example and continue to violate the law until they do react, and they WILL.

[Russell Kanning]

I like the mail idea....and I like the refusing to take $s
The mail idea is simplier. I think.

[Kat Kanning]

LOL!

[Russell Kanning]

Maybe we should get Shorty arrested by homeland security.