3rd Annual Jaffrey Live Free or Die Celebration & Forum

[FTL_Ian]

OK,  here's pokerkid (aka Paul Topete) speaking about the issue of ILLEGAL immigration.  I have no problem with an immigration policy.  But, do it the right way.  We can't afford millions more on an overtaxed welfare system.

So Mr. Topete has Mexican heritage.  He's still intolerant to those breaking laws he thinks are important.  What is "right" about obeying bad laws?

Are pot smokers "illegal drug users"?

Why don't "illegal" drug users "do it the right way" and lobby for changes to the law before they get high?



Since you understand the war on drugs is bad, do you now see the hypocrisy in your position against "illegal" immigration?

[Pokerbass]

Not a fair comparison.  Toking up a joint at the end of the day has no repercussions on anyone else.  Millions of people straining the resources of hospitals, schools, employment and more are affecting us all.

[FTL_Ian]

Not a fair comparison.  Toking up a joint at the end of the day has no repercussions on anyone else.  Millions of people straining the resources of hospitals, schools, employment and more are affecting us all.

Nope, the government is hurting you by forcing you to pay for it all.  If your issue is the welfare state, you should focus there instead of on the distraction of immigration.  Stopping "illegal" immigration will require a police state.  Do you endorse that?  Also, you didn't answer the questions.

[Pokerbass]

Enforcing immigration does not require a police state.  But, it does seem to be counterproductive when Border agents are being jailed for providing the enforcement for which they've been hired. 

Not sure which question I didn't answer, but, I'm assuming you're referring to the drug laws comparison.  In response, we do lobby for change and the band plays in support of that change.  We performed for Libertarian Party conventions in several states including the National Convention in Atlanta in 2004.  We even played the Halloween Party for the Keene State College LP.  The band also had involvement with NORML's convention when it was held in DC (2000, I think), and performed at Ed "The Weedman" Forchian's rally when he was running for NJ Senate on the US Marijuana Party. 

The real question that should be asked though, is why do people like George W Bush and Ollie North get caught with their hands in the cookie jar and end up free men?  Hell, Ollie got his own tv show. 

[Pokerbass]

This has been fun, but, I must go make love to my big breasted wife before sacking out for the night.  This has been fun, but, that will be more fun.  Will check back in tomorrow.

Peace,
Dennis

[error]

Hey, you never answered my question.

If we can't afford welfare for illegal immigrants, why is the government ignoring them and kicking out the productive immigrants?

[FTL_Ian]

I'd like to apologize for calling you guys racists.  I now have more information about your beliefs.

Not sure which question I didn't answer, but, I'm assuming you're referring to the drug laws comparison.  In response, we do lobby for change and the band plays in support of that change.  We performed for Libertarian Party conventions in several states including the National Convention in Atlanta in 2004.  We even played the Halloween Party for the Keene State College LP.  The band also had involvement with NORML's convention when it was held in DC (2000, I think), and performed at Ed "The Weedman" Forchian's rally when he was running for NJ Senate on the US Marijuana Party. 

Nice flash of your activism cred, but you're still in a band and moderate a forum with a bigoted nationalist homophobe (not racist), and you're unapologetic about it.  The jury is still out on your beliefs, but you appear to at least be a nationalist.  I think you're obfuscating the rest of your beliefs and trying to distract by dropping names and unrelated queries like this:

The real question that should be asked though, is why do people like George W Bush and Ollie North get caught with their hands in the cookie jar and end up free men?  Hell, Ollie got his own tv show. 

Here's another question, what should happen to me if I get caught smuggling or harboring "illegal" immigrants?

I'll let someone else engage you at this point.

[dalebert]

Keith has a point. I'm a pretty hardcore anarchist and don't even believe in illegal immigration. I have lots of friends who differ with me, but I don't ostracize them. It's part of the myth and mysticism of minarchy and if we treat minarchists too heavy-handedly, I just don't think that's the best way to help them come around to seeing what real freedom is about. I came to my conclusions based on equating those specific racist ideas to Pokerkid. If this was a case of misunderstanding from the context or whatever, and the evidence isn't there to show that he supports those then I need to apologize as well and I wouldn't think it appropriate to encourage banning them from the event. If Ian has already changed his tune on that then there must be something to it and I definitely need to give it a closer look. I'll do that and post again soon.

[umbc_libertarian]

Hi.  I think things need to be clarified.  The issue was never about whether PokerFace/Paul should be free to write what is on their forum.  The issue was never about illegal-immigration, the drug war, or their libertarian credentials.  The issue was never about whether Paul and the members of PokerFace were generally decent, friendly people.  All of these were taken for granted (though Paul's indecent and unfriendly email certainly challenges this last point).

The issue is whether pro-liberty individuals or organizations should host or associate with a band whose lead member promotes, and whose other members seem unconcerned by, amongst other things, a White Liberationist Libertarian Political Party, the Holocaust as a hoax, that Israel (or IsraHELL as it is often referred to) is behind 911, that there is a Satanic Jewish conspiracy, and that "no society can flourish in which the Jew feels at ease."  As far as I can tell, no one from PokerFace has denied that pokerkid is Paul, despite repeated queries. Similarly, given opportunities to explain his posts, Paul has defended them as being the "truth" which others need to wake up to and accused me of "judas goat actions" and covering for "crimes of the tribe." 

This is the first time I've had/decided to confront something like this and it was not an easy choice or something I did lightly.  But as it seemed PokerFace was growing more involved in the pro-liberty scene, and the rhetoric on the forum was worsening, I thought it necessary that this issue be addressed.  There is a wide variety of views in this movement and tolerance is critical.  Many, including myself, are rightly concerned about this setting a precedent for those with unpopular/controversial views being excluded. To this concern, I simply point out that this was about standing up against anti-Semitism, racism, nationalism, group vilification, or whatever you'd like to label the views expressed, which (I'd hope) are rejected and go well beyond being held as simply unpopular or controversial by those in the pro-liberty movement. 

Dennis, I thank you for posting to the forum and showing that not all the members of Poker Face are/think like Paul; but you are part of a band which is taken as a single package.  Paul is the front man and the forum in question is one in which you are an admin.  You do have some responsibilities.  Similarly, as individuals, organization decision makers, and event hosts, we all have a level of responsibility for those we invite, promote, tolerate, and associate with.  At this point, having read everything, re-evaluated my views, and gotten third-party reactions to the forum, I still believe being connected with PokerFace to be improper, irresponsible, and both immediately and eventually harmful.

[BillKauffman]

Rich-

This may be a little off topic but I was curious if you have any thoughts on the national-anarchist movement as it relates to this issue?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_anarchism

"National-Anarchists advocate a model of society in which communities that practise separatism along the lines of ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation are able to coexist alongside mixed or integrated communities without requiring force. They suggest that "autonomous zones" would exist with their own rules for permanent residence in a community without the strict ethnic divisions and violence advocated by racist nationalism. National-Anarchists consider genocide, murder, and social conformity to be unnecessary, tyrannical and an affront to "libertarian minded people".

Some proponents of National-Anarchism support voluntary racial separatism, but not racial hatred or racial supremacy (such as white supremacy and black supremacy). Some National-Anarchists, including Southgate, believe that miscegenation damages cultural diversity, on the grounds that the intermixing of cultures destroys one or all of the cultures involved. They further maintain that racial separatism stops racial hatred from developing by allowing indigenous cultures and biodiversity to continue. Southgate has stated that "Our concept of the word 'national' relates not to territory but to the racial identity which is a natural facet of all peoples", and that "we are seeking our own space in which to live according to our own principles". The United States National-Anarchist group Folk and Faith states: "Being firm believers in true bio-diversity, National-Anarchists are staunch racial separatists." Anarchist critics argue that National-Anarchism's concept of racial separation is intrinsically linked to racial hatred. For their part, National-Anarchists generally distance themselves from both mainstream anarchists and white supremacists."

[umbc_libertarian]

Hi Bill.  I'm not familiar with National Anarchism.  But from what you describe, as it relates to this issue, I find the lack of vilification enough to separate it from the category of what is at issue with PokerFace.  To the extent that birds of a feather like to flock together I kinda of see this as a natural phenomenon that currently occurs, but would be concerned in this -ism about inherent/inevitable xenophobia, isolation, and group think.

[BillKauffman]

Hi Bill.  I'm not familiar with National Anarchism.  But from what you describe, as it relates to this issue, I find the lack of vilification enough to separate it from the category of what is at issue with PokerFace.  To the extent that birds of a feather like to flock together I kinda of see this as a natural phenomenon that currently occurs, but would be concerned in this -ism about inherent/inevitable xenophobia, isolation, and group think.

Well, just like you, maybe the folks in pokerface have never heard of national-anarchism either. What if there were a possibility if they were just educated on how the leadership within the NA movement have evolved - based on historical, biological, cultural, political, economic understanding - to a more enlightened position, so that they too could be more welcomed within the broader liberty-minded movement?

[JosephSHaas]

I'm thinking of getting a t-shirt that just says "who is Carl Drega?" 

I'd buy one with his face on it. http://zoneoftruth.com/drega1.html

Plus I'd also buy another one with the face and: "Who is Harold W. Perkins?"

Over at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Drega it's missing the details of WHY this event took place:

As I did testify in the L.O.B. a few years ago when one of the State Troopers had gone over his medical allocation for repairs to his body to heal from the wounds left by Drega, a bill was introduced to pay him $_______ from out of the General Fund.

I spoke AGAINST the bill, but NOT against the Trooper.  I said for to get this $money NOT from Treasury BUT to attach the retirement pay from Superior Court Judge Harold W. Perkins on Laconia who REFUSED to give Drega his day in court by the judge's LIE that he "failed to state a cause of action upon which relief may be granted" but that he did state the charge of perjury by these people who were harassing him, just that he need not indicate the details in his complaint.  Thus I told the Legislature that the real killer or murderer was and still is: cigarette-smoking man: retired Judge Harold W. Perkins of Laconia, who IF he had given him this venue to vent his frustrations, then the killings might NOT have happened.

Plus BTW his retirement unlawful, as the vote for him and others in the system was a budget  vote for 2-years and against the law.  See Article 36 of the N.H. Const., Part First & Bill of Rights. http://www.state.nh.us/ See my Case #______ in Merrimack County Superior Court @ Concord of a few years ago when I tried to halt Michael Ablowich, the then State Treasurer from sending out these retirement checks.  I lost the case because the statute read for services rendered (past tense) and "to be" rendered, (future tense) as the judges (even with Alzheimers Disease by one Maurice Bois from the N.H. Supreme Court in a Manchester Nursing Home) were on "stand-by" alert, but the statute since changed to ALL past-tense, and my complaint of earlier this year to the N.H. Retirement Board (at #__ Regional Drive on the Heights/ or Chanel Drive?) and Chuck Douglas, its head at the Christian Mutual Building, #__ Loudon Rd., by the Post Office) WARNING them about this, and so to get a copy of page #___ from the State Budget showing this 2-year vote as unlawful and so WHO would like to start this NEW court case? ____________  that I'd be willing to pay the $filing fee and Sheriff's costs to get started. Surely there are other judges un-worthy of getting their retirements too, like I've already indicated in my Article 32 petitions against Wm. R. Johnson of Hanover (who threw me in jail on contempt for 62 days in 1984 when the Const. limits to 10 days by Articles 22+23, Pt. 2, and so 52 days over the #amount @ $____/day) and Peter W. Smith of Littleton, (who charged me with Champerty/ buying up land and mineral rights on Finder's Fee deals as a Bounty Hunter for Missing Heirs too cheap for $1.00 & other valuable consideration in Fall 1992 when that Spring 1992 this common law offense was taken OFF the books by the Adkins case, me spending another 100 days in jail for contempt, and so to claim: $_______ damages), both endorsed by House Rule 36, as signed by three State Reps with their District Numbers, but that the House Speaker REFUSED to process by House Rule 4 over to the appropriate committee since her legal counsel said that the State Rep. had to be the actual conveyor of the Petition in hand over the counter to a Legislative Services agent (Jill), me not told this until months AFTER I had already filed it: and so a word-to-the-wise to PREVENT this excuse in future filings.

Yours truly, - - - - - - - - - Joe / Joseph S. Haas, P.O. Box 3842, Concord, N.H. 03302, Tel. 603: 848-6059 (cell phone) e-mail: JosephSHaas at hotmail.com

[FTL_Ian]

Dennis, I thank you for posting to the forum and showing that not all the members of Poker Face are/think like Paul; but you are part of a band which is taken as a single package.  Paul is the front man and the forum in question is one in which you are an admin.  You do have some responsibilities.  Similarly, as individuals, organization decision makers, and event hosts, we all have a level of responsibility for those we invite, promote, tolerate, and associate with.  At this point, having read everything, re-evaluated my views, and gotten third-party reactions to the forum, I still believe being connected with PokerFace to be improper, irresponsible, and both immediately and eventually harmful.

[BillKauffman]

The jury is still out on your beliefs, but you appear to at least be a nationalist. 

I believe it is possible to be a nationalist and not a statist - where nationalist relates to racial, religious or cultural identity (like the Nation of Islam) rather than a distinct territory that defines a state.