Coconut will not pay : 9-26-08

[SamIam]

The ticket comes with 3 boxes to check and mail back. I checked Not Guilty and sent it back to them.

I've watched Sam's things and followed his cases. The bottom line is that courts and judges will do whatever they want, and I don't have time to plan for every action they may take in that room. Sam tries to work the fringes of the system to show it as illegitimate, which it is, and I can show that in 60 seconds in a courtroom:

1. The judge and officer work for the same company
2. If the defendant and plaintiff are supposed to be on an even field, why does he have all his weapons in the room and I will have a voice recorder stripped from me?

The court will continue to run, and will do to me whatever they want to. I'd like to be in and out without going through some loopyloop of questions meant to delay them. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I should be putting more effort into slowing them down and holding someone accountable.

The thing I liked about Marc's video that you just posted was the fact that there was no personal injury. If I am indeed going to resist, that is a point I was going to bring up. I think I may use a "right to revolution" approach. They need to prove that their speed limit is not arbitrary in order for me to not have the right to resist, as I see it.

I go back and forth on this in my head literally every hour.

Coconut,

I'm learning that UCC may be underlying the court procedures to fill in the gaps. I believe it's based around offer and acceptance. Consider this example:

COCONUT! You have violated my posting statutes by using the phrase "head literally every hour" and are subject to a fine of $130. You have the option of pleading Gulity, Not Guilty, or No Context. Please decide which one. You are here by ordered to return the form with your selection within 10 days.

If you sent a reply and checked on of my boxes, you just agreed to violating the statute, and participating in my process. I think it would make more sense to send a letter back saying,

I'm Coconut, and I don't know who your looking for here (COCONUT!), but for my time and effort charge $325 per hour. If it's me you seek, please correct the spelling of my name, and return with a $5,000 retainer so that I may fill with your order.

However, if you sent back a reply that said, uuuh, okay SamIam, here's your signed form with not guilty checked, then you just fell for it hook line and sinker. Make sense? If I sent you an offer, what options do you think I would send you on MY return form? The options in my best interest or yours? (given I'm trying to take your money)

Once you agree to my distorted view of reality, your rights are of little consequence to me. By consenting to my forms and processes (silence is consent), you have let me define reality. Does that make sense?

The UCC Connection:
http://www.geocities.com/three_strikes_legal/ucc_connection.htm

[Coconut]

However, if you sent back a reply that said, uuuh, okay SamIam, here's your signed form with not guilty checked, then you just fell for it hook line and sinker.

Oh well. I guess the "MUST RESPOND" and "A PENALTY WILL APPLY" made me fall for sending back their notice.

I didn't agree to abide by any ruling of some court or agree that I've violated anyone.

If I don't consent to their correspondence from the beginning, do you suggest I don't take the paper from the officer's hand in the first place?

[SamIam]

No need for despair, as it's a learning process. Look at what I have gone though to get to this point! :

Yes, If I made you an offer and said if you don't respond, then x will happen. The way I understand it, you have to respond, but by no means should you only consider the options I present to you. Learn what options are available to you.

By signing and returning their form, you just stepped into their cage, under their rules, etc. You have agreed to a lot more than you think.

You can refuse the offer (complaint), and the police will threaten to take you to jail. If someone does that, then they are threatening harm, and you can sign it: Under Duress, {Coconut's Signature}.

Only If it's under Duress and the threat was verbalized, then it's not a valid complaint, and you can challenge it later, by sending it back with the appropriate UCC words. There a guy that does this (and has sued government agents many times, and he talks about it on The Rule of Law.

Then there was a great show with a guy who talked about traffic court and by signing their form, answering are you cocunut? etc. you have testified, and then you can be compelled to testify. Hour 3 of the show covers some of the traffic ticket issues, but all 4 hours are great. I've started to understand how they ignore their constitution and case law. It's quite amazing, but a bit technical with the language and procedures. http://mp3.wtprn.com/Kelton/0808/20080829_Fri_Kelton3.mp3

That link is only for hour 3, but if you listen to all 4 hours of that show, you will hear the stories of people who are successfully defending tickets, filing criminal charges against the public officials, and even getting settlements. It was very interesting, and I've ordered the training from jursdictionary.com. I'm working though it now to understand how the legal proceedings work. The 8-29 show was long, but very very good. Here's the archive listing: http://mp3.wtprn.com/Kelton08.html 

Again, technical, long and can be very confusing, but these guys know what they are talking about. This is the path I'm going to head down, and gain greater knowledge.

One thing I learned, if the state starts the fight, then you can sue them. If you file a suit, then they do have immunity.

Here's a better link for the UCC Connection: http://usa-the-republic.com/revenue/ucc%20connection.html

There's a lot of BS to learn, but I think this will lead to an effective way to convince the bureaucrats to leave you alone. It's probably going to take suing the city a few times, and putting some of the bureaucrats in jail. I'm debating how do fold this into my cases.

[peacenic]

If I don't consent to their correspondence from the beginning, do you suggest I don't take the paper from the officer's hand in the first place?

I have a feeling that might get you arrested.  Cops don't do well with people who don't follow their orders.  I remember seeing a Youtube vid last year where a guy got tased after he refused to sign a ticket.  You never know when you have a rogue cop on your hands.

For future reference, I like Sam's suggestion of sending them a letter in response to the ticket.  It creates a dialog with them without consenting to their rules.  Or if your feeling brave, ignore the ticket.  If they come get you, question the legitimacy of the charge at that time. 

But for now, because you've sent their ticket back, to them it appears you have consented.  If you want to put up a fight, maybe try the David route, it worked for him, right?  Is it the same courtroom?  It'd be interesting to see how they handle that stance a second time. 

[David]

It mostly worked for me.  I was convicted, but I paid no money to the gov't, and they apparantly decided to not try to force me. 

[dalebert]

I would never pressure someone to engage in civil disobedience. We all have our comfort level. The state can be really intimidating and has a lot of potential violence on their side. If a robber holds a gun on you and asks for your wallet, a lot of people would hand their wallet over because they value their life more and I can't fault them for that even while I really admire the person who chooses to fight back.

[Kat Kanning]

On a practical note, if you go to court they usually lower the fine.  /shrug

[SamIam]

I have a feeling that might get you arrested.  Cops don't do well with people who don't follow their orders. . .  
For future reference, I like Sam's suggestion of sending them a letter in response to the ticket.  It creates a dialog with them without consenting to their rules. 

Or if your feeling brave, ignore the ticket.  If they come get you, question the legitimacy of the charge at that time. 

But for now, because you've sent their ticket back, to them it appears you have consented.  If you want to put up a fight, maybe try the David route, it worked for him, right?  Is it the same courtroom?  It'd be interesting to see how they handle that stance a second time. 

By ignoring the offer, you agree to the terms. Questioning the legitimacy at that point is pointless, because you have already agreed by accepting the offer (though your lack of a response).

I would would want to send the complaint back but with my offer that disputes the claim.

Humm, I wonder why they only offer a negative plea of guilty, no contest, or not guilty instead of a plea of innocence?   This is quite a fascinating deception indeed.

[TackleTheWorld]

I love your "Illegitimate in 60 seconds" strategy.  The problem will be to get your 60 seconds.

The judge is a fast-talking, must-dominate-the-discourse type.  If you want things to go quickly, he will oblige.    He will try to rush you to testimony and cross examination where he has the most discretion on what is being said.  The trick Marc and Sam use is to speak before the court officially starts.  That's why the court pressures you to plead immediately. 

Anyway, if you do get to speak and get these points in, I will reimburse you for any fine.

1. The judge and officer (and the prosecutor) work for the same company
2. The plaintiff has a weapon
3. I had a voice recorder stripped from me
4. Their speed limit arbitrary.

[Dave Ridley]

this could be a good event to do camera panning civil dis (which otherwise might not be that great of an act)...the perfect event in fact since the usual videographer is tied up being the defendant!

So would you come and do it?

i'd say there's a 60 percent chance i'd do it (the camera panning disobedience) if i'm not already arrested by that time.  i would make it part of the puppeteering campaign and break some other bad laws outside the courtroom before or after.  thus far this looks like a great idea but flaws always appear as you look closer.

once i get arrested as part of this civil disobedience campaign, i will end it and probably no longer be available for civil dis.

[Dave Ridley]

As Sam points out, you have to understand the nature and cause of the proceedings against you in order to plead.

is that part of nh law?

[Dave Ridley]

As Sam points out, you have to understand the nature and cause of the proceedings against you in order to plead.

If they ask if you understand, say no, and ask a question back.  Marc Stevens has scripts for sale and Sam may have a modified script he can share with you.

The ticket comes with 3 boxes to check and mail back. I checked Not Guilty and sent it back to them.

I've watched Sam's things and followed his cases. The bottom line is that courts and judges will do whatever they want, and I don't have time to plan for every action they may take in that room. Sam tries to work the fringes of the system to show it as illegitimate, which it is, and I can show that in 60 seconds in a courtroom:

1. The judge and officer work for the same company
2. If the defendant and plaintiff are supposed to be on an even field, why does he have all his weapons in the room and I will have a voice recorder stripped from me?

The court will continue to run, and will do to me whatever they want to. I'd like to be in and out without going through some loopyloop of questions meant to delay them. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I should be putting more effort into slowing them down and holding someone accountable.

The thing I liked about Marc's video that you just posted was the fact that there was no personal injury. If I am indeed going to resist, that is a point I was going to bring up. I think I may use a "right to revolution" approach. They need to prove that their speed limit is not arbitrary in order for me to not have the right to resist, as I see it.

I go back and forth on this in my head literally every hour.

i like coconut's thinking here.  keep it simple.  i dont like the idea of questioning authorities over capital letters that just seems frivolus.

if the judge accuses you of delaying other cases in the room, volunteer to have your case heard last.  maybe volunteer for that before it even starts.  beg the judge not to hold other people hostage.  make sure the hostages hear you.   

[bigmike]

make your stand, coconut.

stick to your principals. you'll feel better after.

Could you do it?

I have a job, money, a business I am trying to run. Me doing this won't change the world. We can't change anything by compromise either though. Nothing will change until it's more important to us than our jobs, money, businesses, and comfort.

Thanks David. I won't ask that anyone go if I'm just going to beg their forgiveness.

I'm not worried about my job security. They'll give me the days off, however, I'm always driven to get all my work done there. Losing a few days will hinder that. I guess it's a personal issue.

not only could i do it, i plan to

i know it's not the easiest thing to do and i don't want you to think that i was trying to put any additional pressure on your decision. you have to do what's right for you.

that being said, you have a HUGE support system here that will back you up. i don't think i have to apologize for saying i'm speaking for most of the readers here when i say we support you.

will you making a stand change the outcome? probably not. but you stuck to your principals and it will hopefully be recorded and broadcast for others to see. i wouldn't underestimate the importance of that alone.

if you watched the second of mark's videos about making an officer prove he is not competent to testify, that alone is a small victory and you'll probably have fun doing it.

[Dave Ridley]

ok can someone help get me started on the process of obtaining permission to videotape 9/26?

what do I need to do?   remember i want to at least try and comply with all their protocols except the camera panning ban.

[Russell Kanning]

As Sam points out, you have to understand the nature and cause of the proceedings against you in order to plead.

It really is hard to "plead" in their courts ... you never know what they are really doing.
Then they just "plead" for you.