I Will Be Boycotting the NHUnderground Forums

[Jitgos]

Knock off the false dichotomies.

<<<Not new to debate.

I appreciate where you're coming from on safety. Safety should be the top priority and if Jesse was not or has not in the past be as safe as possible then that needs to change.

Also, I was frankly terrified when I first heard about this incident (porc411 I think) and was wondering if it was absolutely necessary. He didn't have to go over there, but once there I don't see the choice.

I don't see the false dichotomy. Either he is punched or he draws his weapon and is not punched. Can you please explain what the other options were? I agree that running or any other non violent option would be far preferable to drawing the gun, but it's my understanding that their were no other practical options available other than the two. If running was an option he should have taken it.

I try to remember that I wasn't in his shoes in that moment of apparent fear for bodily harm.  I prefer pacifism, but I do believe in self defense when physical harm is imminent. Can't a person be killed with one punch? I don't see why he should have to wait until after he was punched a second time to defend himself. How many guys need to be surrounding someone or how many times does a person need to be punched before it's okay to draw the gun? Does he have to be down and bleeding in the street?

I'm asking this completely seriously. I have thought quite a bit about when it would be appropriate to pull a gun and after thinking things through it's in far far far far less situations than I would have thought without analyzing the possible situations.

[Puke]

This thread needs more quoting.

[John Shaw]

I don't see the false dichotomy. Either he is punched or he draws his weapon and is not punched. Can you please explain what the other options were? I agree that running or any other non violent option would be far preferable to drawing the gun, but it's my understanding that their were no other practical options available other than the two. If running was an option he should have taken it.

He. Shouldn't. Have. Gone. Over. There.

He was in the wrong from the very beginning. They called names. He started a confrontation that was leading to violence.

If the scenario had been one where they yelled at him as he drove by, and then they walked over to him and confronted him on, say, his own property or at least the property where he lives, he'd have had some justification for his behavior. And one more tidbit, he could probably have rested his hand on the butt of his gun and gotten the exact same results with almost zero danger to himself or others. I'm not particularly in favor of that, either, but there were better actions for him to take.

I, personally, carry concealed. I wear pants and a tucked in shirt, with an unbuttoned overshirt or vest covering my gun, which is usually IWB in a holster. I can lift the edge of my shirt and rest my hand on the butt of my gun and it looks like I'm just resting my hand on my hip. With an open carry situation, resting your hand on a gun butt is very threatening, although less threatening than brandishing.

I try to remember that I wasn't in his shoes in that moment of apparent fear for bodily harm.  I prefer pacifism, but I do believe in self defense when physical harm is imminent. Can't a person be killed with one punch? I don't see why he should have to wait until after he was punched a second time to defend himself. How many guys need to be surrounding someone or how many times does a person need to be punched before it's okay to draw the gun? Does he have to be down and bleeding in the street?

He can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. I'd just keep my distance from the dude, and not associate with people who don't know how to handle a gun properly.

I'm asking this completely seriously. I have thought quite a bit about when it would be appropriate to pull a gun and after thinking things through it's in far far far far less situations than I would have thought without analyzing the possible situations.

It is appropriate when you, personally, decide that your life is really for real in danger. It is appropriate to draw exactly when it is appropriate to fire. Not before. Again, a gun is not a tool of negotiation. That kind of thinking leads to preemptive intimidation to achieve goals.

If you think you need to kill a man because he's drunk and takes a swing at you, then you damned well better be impaired in some physical way. Even if there are four of them.

He voluntarily entered the confrontation and that's that.

[John Shaw]

This thread needs more quoting.

Yeah, but if there isn't you get what happened a little while ago when someone accused me of being trigger happy, when I have been saying nothing but the opposite.

Also, 'sup Puke. How've you been?

[leetninja]

This thread needs more quoting.

yes it does

[leetninja]

john did you miss my last post to you?  i like your opinions which is why im asking.  i like constructive debate

[John Shaw]

john did you miss my last post to you?  i like your opinions which is why im asking.  i like constructive debate

Yeah, responded on the second to last post on the last page.

EDIT: Aw crap, that wasn't you. Give me a little while and I'll respond. Making dinner.

[John]

This thread needs more quoting.

So, then I'll repeat myself.

[John]

Sometimes, people can die from just one punch.

This is quite true, and it is why I might concider any physical attack against me as a threat on my life.
One is quite within their rights to defend their life with deadly force.

In all my study of martial arts, the most important thing I ever learned was that the best/only way to never loose a fight is to not get into fights.

I don't think Kat is saying that people don't have a right to defend themselves, but rather that she chooses a different path.

I like to imagine a world where folks (including me) are brave enough to step back from confrontation rather than escalating things. It takes real guts to stand (down) for peace - and it ain't always easy.

But I repeat, myself. 

[AntonLee]

Well said John.

[Jim Johnson]

I'm not being quoted here... don't make me boycott this forum again... cause if I'm not posting... boy-O-boy.

[ByronB]

Then you have never taken a basic firearms safety course. This is guns 101, man. Draw and fire.

  1. All guns are always loaded (until you establish whether they are or not).
  2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. Keep your gun pointed in a safe direction at all times: on the range, at home, loading, or unloading.
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target (and you are ready to shoot).
  4. Be sure of your target. Know what it is, what is in line with it and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you haven't positively identified.

I completely agree and even take somethings farther (I make a point of treating all guns like they are loaded ALWAYS with the only exception being when I've checked the chamber and am in the process of disassembling it).

However, I think you need to clear things up about your "draw and ALWAYS shoot" because you seem to be confusing many of us... are you saying that you would only draw on someone you know wouldn't be fazed by a firearm and would keep coming at you (which would imply that you would let yourself get beat to death by anyone who would run if you pulled a gun), or are you saying that anyone who threatens you bad enough to make you draw deserves to "get it' even if in that split second it takes you to draw they decide to run... I'm sure you wouldn't shoot people in the back, would you?

[freeman4liberty]

Is this a flame war?   

[John Shaw]

However, I think you need to clear things up about your "draw and ALWAYS shoot" because you seem to be confusing many of us... are you saying that you would only draw on someone you know wouldn't be fazed by a firearm and would keep coming at you (which would imply that you would let yourself get beat to death by anyone who would run if you pulled a gun), or are you saying that anyone who threatens you bad enough to make you draw deserves to "get it' even if in that split second it takes you to draw they decide to run... I'm sure you wouldn't shoot people in the back, would you?

I don't see what is so confusing.

I would not draw a gun on anyone unless I was certain (in my own judgment) that if I do not draw and fire, that I will die.

Then I will draw and fire until I deem the threat to be neutralized.


As for someone fleeing, well, if they can turn around and start running by the time I have taken aim and started pulling the trigger, I'd be damned surprised, but if they did, no, I would not shoot them.

If you want to know my specific line, well, I suppose if someone came at me with anything other than a fist, they'd get a bullet in return. If they use their hands and feet, I will try to stop the attack without permanent damage to either party for as long as I can.

And just another tidbit, making it clear to someone who is threatening you that you are armed, depending on the circumstances, can help defuse a violent event as well.

"Please don't force me to defend myself, I don't want anyone to get hurt." while resting your hand over your gun can go a long way.

[Riddler]

IMO, its not a black and white decision. We are talking about the serious potential for taking a persons life. In many cases, a drawn weapon does not have to be fired to be effective in diffusing a situation. I'd also like to add that every encounter is different and it must be treated as such. There are no hard, fast rules nor is it black and white when it comes to practicing self defense.



And IMO an armed weapon can be a deterrant without having to use it.

This is spot-on.
I had it happen to me.
2 guys came at me in my truck at a red light. They had followed me from their house, where I had come up over a sharp crest in the road & almost rear-ended someone stopped inthe middle of the road, in front of their house. I ended up sideways in the road, swore at the car & headed out.
1 guy on each side of the truck. Pass. side locked, so he couldn't get in. Driver side dude smacks me upside the head through the open window, then goes for the door lock. Pistol comes up w/ barrel in his face....He backs off.
Game over.