Freedom to Travel Event, Part 1

[Neo Hantoni]

You will be arrested, and your protest forgotten.  Nothing will have been achieved.

It's funny.

Those are the EXACT words someone used to warn me about the manicure event.

Sorry, Mike, but your protest has ALREADY been forgotten.  The crew turning its attention to a different project will assure that it remains so.

Nobody is forcing you to particapate. So don't. Your comments are very insulting.

I am sorry that you find the truth insulting.  It is very easy to get together with a group of friends and pat one another on the back for a "job well done", but that is a terrible measure of success.  That's what I'm seeing here.

While I am certainly not participating in this protest, this approach generally (if not specific protests) will have negative consequences for the freedom movement in New Hampshire, particularly those with some relationship with free staters.  Those consequences are developing now, even if you cannot see them.

[Russell Kanning]

I want to travel without government restrictions. I don't want to go to court about it...I just want to do it. If they let me do it....then I have succeeded. I don't want to be arrested...but if they stop me I will continue to move forward.

[Russell Kanning]

While I am certainly not participating in this protest, this approach generally (if not specific protests) will have negative consequences for the freedom movement in New Hampshire, particularly those with some relationship with free staters.? Those consequences are developing now, even if you cannot see them.

I don't care how this reflects on free staters....that is not the point of this.
We shouldn't have to accomodate our behaviour to fit political correctness.
I want to go to Philadelphia....and I don't want the STATE to get in my way.
I am looking forward to the day when traveling without ID is no longer unusual or newsworthy.

[Neo Hantoni]

I wouldn't take advice of some unidentified person.  His purpose here may be just to discourage any action.

My purpose is not to discourage action generally, but to discourage THIS action, and encourage action that I feel will be effective.

I had mixed feelings on Mike Fisher's license protest.  Although it was perfectly legitimate way of protesting an injustice, I do not believe it was effective.  Ghandi is a great inspiration, but missing from Ghandi's formula in Mike's protest is the sense of nationhood that Ghandi had tapped into.  Would Ghandi's salt march have been as effective if the salt license were imposed by an Indian government rather than a British one?  I somehow doubt it.

Regardless of that protest's flaws, I am perplexed that this group here seems intent on leaving the momentum, perceived or real, from that protest, and is now moving on to something unrelated.  Its like you want to fail.

[Michael Fisher]

You will be arrested, and your protest forgotten.? Nothing will have been achieved.

It's funny.

Those are the EXACT words someone used to warn me about the manicure event.

Sorry, Mike, but your protest has ALREADY been forgotten.? The crew turning its attention to a different project will assure that it remains so.

Constructive criticism is great. ?Your destructive criticism is not at all welcome with me. ?It is not necessary to say that my protest resulted in significant media coverage and public debate, far more than Gandhi's first act of civil disobedience. ?His first act was to refuse to comply with racial segregation rules on a train in Pietermaritzburg, which resulted in him being forcibly ejected from a train. ?As far as I know, there was NO media coverage of this event until later during his satyagraha campaign.

A successful satyagraha campaign takes years. ?Its goals cannot be accomplished overnight. ?Do not insult us because of your impatience.

[Michael Fisher]

It takes years to create change because people are rightfully slow to change.  We will continue to present our ideas, and the public can take its time deciding whether or not to support us.  An event every year or two should be sufficient unless the momentum becomes too great.  We are not at that point yet.  We must take one step at a time.

[Russell Kanning]

Maybe in the future we can do something that ties Mikes license event more closely with my ID event.
Mike wanted to show how silly a certain rule was....and he did it.....I can see more people doing what he did.....

...but this time.....I just want to travel freely

[Neo Hantoni]

While I am certainly not participating in this protest, this approach generally (if not specific protests) will have negative consequences for the freedom movement in New Hampshire, particularly those with some relationship with free staters.  Those consequences are developing now, even if you cannot see them.

I don't care how this reflects on free staters....that is not the point of this.
We shouldn't have to accomodate our behaviour to fit political correctness.
I want to go to Philadelphia....and I don't want the STATE to get in my way.
I am looking forward to the day when traveling without ID is no longer unusual or newsworthy.

This is the classic non-approach used by libertarians everywhere.  You know where we need to be, but have no idea how to get there.   Most libertarians think that talking alone will get us there.  At least you're beyond that.  But your understanding of what action is needed is deeply flawed.  This will not get you from here to there.

[Michael Fisher]

Since Gilmore took 'no' for an answer....all he can due is sue the government.....and stay in San Francisco. I am not appealing to the constitution......I just want to be free to travel. I shouldn't need the governments license/ID to do that.

Exactly.

If you tell everyone in advance what you will be doing, then they will expect you to say "I refuse to take no for an answer." ?They will arrest you, like they arrested me, for saying that you refuse to cooperate. ?If a civil disobedience event is planned in public and announced to all concerned parties, the result will be much more desirable. ?Your plan must be exact. ?Write polite letters to the bureaucrats in charge if necessary, protesting against the law, telling them honestly about your plans, and asking for them to be prepared to enforce the law. ?Remind them that you are not refusing to physically cooperate with people, only with systems and laws.

[JonM]

I want to travel without government restrictions. I don't want to go to court about it...I just want to do it. If they let me do it....then I have succeeded. I don't want to be arrested...but if they stop me I will continue to move forward.

Good luck with that, but it sounds as if it violates ZAP. ?You won't be arrested for failing to show ID, but if you are arrested for attempting to violate airport security by pressing forward when someone stands in your way . . . battery perhaps or something else. ?Even though the federal government controls security, I'm not sure if they have jurisdiction there or not for prosecution. ?It's likely it will fall to state troopers.

[Russell Kanning]

If you tell everyone in advance what you will be doing, then they will expect you to say "I refuse to take no for an answer."

That is a good idea.

[Neo Hantoni]

A successful satyagraha campaign takes years.  Its goals cannot be accomplished overnight.  Do not insult us because of your impatience.

Well, good luck with it.  I have serious doubts of course, but I hope I am proven wrong.

[JonM]

If you tell everyone in advance what you will be doing, then they will expect you to say "I refuse to take no for an answer." ?They will arrest you, like they arrested me, for saying that you refuse to cooperate. ?If a civil disobedience event is planned in public and announced to all concerned parties, the result will be much more desirable. ?Your plan must be exact. ?Write polite letters to the bureaucrats in charge if necessary, protesting against the law, telling them honestly about your plans, and asking for them to be prepared to enforce the law. ?Remind them that you are not refusing to physically cooperate with people, only with systems and laws.

You were actually violating a law, they had no choice but to arrest you when you refused to stop. ?Russell will not be violating a law by refusing to show ID, he will be violating a law when he physically touches someone standing in his way after he refuses to show ID. ?My understanding of ZAP is not perfect, I will admit, but I'm fairly sure that doesn't fit with it.

[Russell Kanning]

Hey maybe I could attract some libertarian protesters......you never know I might trip and violate ZAP

[Michael Fisher]

draft press release, suggestions welcome

VERY NICE, Dave! ?

A few changes:

"My goal is to get on the plane with no I.D., if it's this time or next time...I'll just keep trying to do it."

Maybe you could say: ?"I'm going to politely refuse to show my ID. ?I will communicate to security that I will not give up until I am forced to stop."

"We'll go slowly, we'll talk with them, we might even tell them everything we're going to do ahead of time. ?We're *not* trying to hurt anybody," he says.

How about: ?"we have already told them everything we're going to do ahead of time." ?This press release should be sent at the same time as a letter to the TSA.

"In South Africa (where Gandhi's protests began), Indians had to have special I.D...so it's very similar that way, and he wanted to burn it...He was appealing to that same basic idea that we have rights to not have to have paperwork to be able to move freely."

How about: ?"When visiting South Africa, Gandhi refused to comply with racial segregation laws and was forcefully ejected from a train. ?Non-whites were issued special travel IDs in that country, so he organized an event to burn these IDs in protest. ?These were his first acts of civil disobedience."

Kanning says Fisher's example inspired him to take similar action against personal licensing, which affects far more people.

Correction: ?Everyone is affected by licensing laws and ID travel requirements.

Perhaps include something about Germany in the 1940s - police everywhere, countless government agents always asking, "your papers, please." ?Also if we could have a statement such as "Americans were never required to show ID to travel prior to (year)..." ?We need more facts to make our case stronger to the public.