Vegans - B12

[livefreeNHgirl]

On the other hand, I do eat eggs for the B12 and protein, but they are carefully chosen eggs...ones from farmers I know locally, who treat their chickens very well. No harm is coming to the chickens, quite the opposite. I do eat local honey as well because I do not believe beekeepers harm the bees.

If anyone is interested to know, mass dairy production, although it supposedly doesn't KILL animals, is extremely cruel to cows.    They live miserable lives and their male calves are sent off to be veal. (Sorry, just felt compelled to slip that in...!)

Why is it that when you were talking about the chickens you only talked about chickens that were free range chickens and when talking about cows you only talk about cows that are in mass dairy production. Have you never heard of factory chicken farms or free range cows? Your personal life style (ovo-vegetarian) had such a bias on your interpretation of reality that I almost fell back in my chair :-)

http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming_chickens_egg.asp

Hee hee.

Why do you feel the need to get argumentative? I am being respectful, why not you? Anyway, of course I have heard of free range cows, and I have heard of factory farmed chickens.

In fact, I have researched these topics for years.

I am simply saying that for MY protein/B12 source, I choose to eat only eggs from happy, local chickens. What is wrong with that? That is not an "interpretation of reality". It is just a humane choice I make.

And someone had mentioned milk earlier, so I brought up the dairy industry.

I don't really get your point at all. In fact, you did not really make a point, but instead attacked my version of reality. At the same time you posted a link that supported my choice to eat local eggs instead of factory farmed eggs. 

Perhaps you are not comprehending my posts.

I am not attacking, not judging, just expressing my point of view. And I am addressing YOUR original post about becoming a vegan and trying to be self-sufficient without having to buy supplements. I thought I was helping you!

(I realize eating eggs is not technically "vegan" but I simply explained that I am the closest to being vegan I can be while still not harming animals.)

Another way to get your B12 (trying to stay on topic here) is to eat unwashed organic vegetables and unfiltered water. "Normally, B12 is absorbed by plants from the bacterial action in the ground. Sadly, soil bacteria have been destroyed through modern farming. Pesticides leach into the ground, killing the bacteria responsible for creating B12. If B12 is not in the soil, it's not in your veggies." This was extracted from: http://www.freedomyou.com/nutrition_book/Modern%20Meat.htm

Wow. What a welcome I have received into this Libertarian community. Wait...am I in the right place...?

[livefreeNHgirl]

One Caveat.

Sheep would die if you didn't shear them, because their wool doesn't fall off on it's own. So actually the inhuman and anti-animal thing to do is to NOT shear them.

Human shearing of sheep is a symbiotic relationship.

Tracy, it may be true that domestic sheep would suffer, perhaps die, if they were not shorn yearly. However, the billions of domestic sheep would not EXIST unless we bred them to be this way and bred them in large numbers to serve us in this way. (just like we breed dogs to be all different sizes, colors, etc...we have manipulated nature to serve our needs).

In addition, if you really ARE concerned about the welfare of sheep, which you seem to have expressed in your post, I would encourage you to learn about the reality of the wool industry. This is not about an old farmer on a pretty farm sauntering down to the big red barn with his shears to shear Ol' Betsy and give her a nice pat on the rump after. See the barbaric truth below.

I know some of you may try to pass this off as propoganda, because that is the typical response, but there is video and photographic evidence of mass cruelty being perpetrated. This is not just in the shearing process, but in the handling and shipping and overall miserable existence being forced upon these animals.

http://www.savethesheep.com/

Be sure to read about mulesing:

http://www.savethesheep.com/animals.asp

I would also say that WILD SHEEP do exist and do NOT have to be shorn by humans every year to continue living. Hmmmm...
http://www.fnaws.org/

[livefreeNHgirl]

I do not visit or support zoos, circuses, animal racing, etc.

You do realize that zoos are one of the principle forces behind "presurving" endangered specied. I wouldn't consider them slaves or prisoners. They get pretty pampered.

And most animal racing, dog training, etc. The animals enjoy it in my experience.
And they get pampered by their owners too.

First, you just said "the animals enjoy it in my experience".

Look, I am not even going to get into this topic because I could write a book on it, and I am obviously not going to change your mind.

I just simply do not believe in the enslavement / imprisonment of animals for human amusement. This comes after years of research into the matter.

[Lex]

And someone had mentioned milk earlier, so I brought up the dairy industry.

I don't really get your point at all. In fact, you did not really make a point, but instead attacked my version of reality. At the same time you posted a link that supported my choice to eat local eggs instead of factory farmed eggs.

My point is that you made a personal choice of only eating eggs as an animal product but for some reason decided not to drink milk. As a result of your choices you had presented reality such that it is OK to eat eggs because chickens are treated well and not OK to drink milk because cows are treated poorly. But in fact, both chickens are treated well and poorly by different farmers and cows are treated well and poorly by different farmers.

So, can't you drink milk if you buy it from a dairy farmer who treats his cows really well?

The way you presented your argument originally it was that only chickens are treated well and thus you only eat eggs.

(I realize eating eggs is not technically "vegan" but I simply explained that I am the closest to being vegan I can be while still not harming animals.)

ovo-vegan

Another way to get your B12 (trying to stay on topic here) is to eat unwashed organic vegetables and unfiltered water. "Normally, B12 is absorbed by plants from the bacterial action in the ground. Sadly, soil bacteria have been destroyed through modern farming. Pesticides leach into the ground, killing the bacteria responsible for creating B12. If B12 is not in the soil, it?s not in your veggies." This was extracted from: http://www.freedomyou.com/nutrition_book/Modern%20Meat.htm

Yes, I have read that in several palces as well. The issue that I'm having is that I live in a cold climate, it's not easy to grow vegetables in the winter. If I was completely dependent on my own food supply for whatever reason and during the winter my greenhouse somehow broke and all my plants died. What then?

MD suggested canning, I wonder how well B12 would preserve in a canning process.

Wow. What a welcome I have received into this Libertarian community. Wait...am I in the right place...?

Are Libertarians cute little unargumentative bunnies?  Didn't think so.

[Lex]

I still think it is REALLY FUCKING WEIRD to call yourself vegan and eat chicken's eggs (no matter where they come from)..Eating chicken eggs and honey means you are eating animal products..not vegan in my book. Its fine and great to eat that stuff, but misleading to introduce yourself as vegan..

beeovoegan?

[Lex]

I still think it is REALLY FUCKING WEIRD to call yourself vegan and eat chicken's eggs (no matter where they come from)..Eating chicken eggs and honey means you are eating animal products..not vegan in my book. Its fine and great to eat that stuff, but misleading to introduce yourself as vegan..

beeovoegan?

OVO-VEGETARIAN!!

But vegetarians can still wear leather and use other animal products. livefreeNHgirl does not use any animal products EXCEPT eggs.

[tracysaboe]

Tracy, it may be true that domestic sheep would suffer, perhaps die, if they were not shorn yearly. However, the billions of domestic sheep would not EXIST unless we bred them to be this way and bred them in large numbers to serve us in this way. (just like we breed dogs to be all different sizes, colors, etc...we have manipulated nature to serve our needs).

The fact is, domesticated sheep do exist now, regardless of how evil human beings selectively devolved them to that point. Don't you think it's anti-animal and inhuman to not sheer them?

Or should these abominations of nature be forced to die a horable, sun-stroking, hot spotting death for the crime of being the descendents of selectively bred sheep, whose selective breeding wasn't even their fault?
Tracy

[tracysaboe]

First, you just said "the animals enjoy it in my experience".

In my vast experience with pets, animals I've been around in nature, etc. Animals do have emotions, and they can let you know how they're feeling. Don't tell me that I'm personifying animals more then you are. In my experience with animals that communicate in said way, the animals express enjoyment. The Multitude of pet cats  and the few dogs that I had growing up enjoyed my companionship as much as I enjoyed theirs.

Look, I am not even going to get into this topic because I could write a book on it, and I am obviously not going to change your mind.

Please do. Let me know about it. I'll probably read it.

I just simply do not believe in the enslavement / imprisonment of animals for human amusement. This comes after years of research into the matter.

I suppose that would depend on your definition of enslavement/imprisonment. Some of my cats ran off to hunt in the woods, and would come home once in a while to eat or sleep. Others begged to come into the house with me, and would cry and meow quite pitifully when I left. Most stayed around the house because they enjoyed getting taken care of and fed. Simular things could be said about my dog. To call them enslaved is quite a streatch of the imagination. Perhaps you could call working dogs (seeing eye dogs, etc.) enslaved. But for the most part, they enjoy their work, if they didn't, they would refused to be trained. (Yes. Dogs can refuse to be trained. All sticks, spankings, and shaking them does is make them angry. Cats are even more so. If they don't want to learn, they won't.)

I think maybe you should get your nose of of all these books your reading and maybe get a pet or spend some time watching a 4-H god training class, etc.

Tracy

[livefreeNHgirl]

Tracy, it may be true that domestic sheep would suffer, perhaps die, if they were not shorn yearly. However, the billions of domestic sheep would not EXIST unless we bred them to be this way and bred them in large numbers to serve us in this way. (just like we breed dogs to be all different sizes, colors, etc...we have manipulated nature to serve our needs).

The fact is, domesticated sheep do exist now, regardless of how evil human beings selectively devolved them to that point. Don't you think it's anti-animal and inhuman to not sheer them?

Or should these abominations of nature be forced to die a horable, sun-stroking, hot spotting death for the crime of being the descendents of selectively bred sheep, whose selective breeding wasn't even their fault?
Tracy

Tracy, of course I do not believe that. I would be happy if all sheep who do existed today were allowed to live their lives out in peace. If that involved shearing them for their comfort and health, so be it.

But you are missing the point that the wool industry is extremely CRUEL and treats sheep like THINGS, not living, breathing, sentient creatures. They are made to suffer in many many other ways during their lives in the wool industry.

I am not so naive to believe that humans will suddenly stop using animals to serve them. So, if animals are to be used in service to humans, we could at least treat them with respect and gratitude. I mostly object to the torture perpetrated on these animals, not necessarily relying on them for sustenance and products.

For instance, I have much more respect for the way indigenous peoples utilized animals. Generally, as far as I know, they were killed quickly, with mercy and gratitude to the animal. In modern times, we breed and house animals in filthy and unnatural environments, cramming them together, slicing off body parts (for "hygiene" purposes), branding them, clipping ears and tails, all without anesthesia. We transport them in extreme heat and cold, we drag them with tractors if they cannot walk themselves, we tear away their offspring, (mother cows have been known to escape and seek out their calves on other farms they have been sold to), then we brutally slaughter them in assembly line fashion...and on and on and on.

In the wool industry, they conduct mulesing en masse. (look it up on google, watch the videos if you dare...then tell me sheep shearing is "symbiotic")

In China, millions of dogs and cats are killed for their skins (often bludgeoned and skinned while still alive...again watch the videos if you'd like) and then sold to the world as "mystery fur". 

Animal rights is a very complex and emotional issue for me, and I do not purport to have all of the answers. I just do my best to live my life without harming any species. I am sure my existence DOES harm other species, though. But I try not to.

And I of course hope others will have an open mind to compassionate living. That's all.

[livefreeNHgirl]

First, you just said "the animals enjoy it in my experience".

In my vast experience with pets, animals I've been around in nature, etc. Animals do have emotions, and they can let you know how they're feeling. Don't tell me that I'm personifying animals more then you are. In my experience with animals that communicate in said way, the animals express enjoyment. The Multitude of pet cats  and the few dogs that I had growing up enjoyed my companionship as much as I enjoyed theirs.

Look, I am not even going to get into this topic because I could write a book on it, and I am obviously not going to change your mind.

Please do. Let me know about it. I'll probably read it.

I just simply do not believe in the enslavement / imprisonment of animals for human amusement. This comes after years of research into the matter.

I suppose that would depend on your definition of enslavement/imprisonment. Some of my cats ran off to hunt in the woods, and would come home once in a while to eat or sleep. Others begged to come into the house with me, and would cry and meow quite pitifully when I left. Most stayed around the house because they enjoyed getting taken care of and fed. Simular things could be said about my dog. To call them enslaved is quite a streatch of the imagination. Perhaps you could call working dogs (seeing eye dogs, etc.) enslaved. But for the most part, they enjoy their work, if they didn't, they would refused to be trained. (Yes. Dogs can refuse to be trained. All sticks, spankings, and shaking them does is make them angry. Cats are even more so. If they don't want to learn, they won't.)

I think maybe you should get your nose of of all these books your reading and maybe get a pet or spend some time watching a 4-H god training class, etc.

Tracy, I have always shared my life with a dog. I never said I was against dog companionship. I said I was against zoos, circuses, racing (and let me add rodeos to that list). HUGE difference. I share my life with my dog and treat her with love and respect. I don't put her in a cage or force her to race / perform and then charge people to watch it. That is exploitation.

I just found it interesting that you said in your experience animals enjoy [it]. You do not seem to be really putting yourself in their shoes and thinking about the life of the animals and whether THEY are enjoying being caged, tied, man-handled, whipped, etc.

I will never "get my nose out of books" though. But thanks for the tip.

[livefreeNHgirl]

I still think it is REALLY FUCKING WEIRD to call yourself vegan and eat chicken's eggs (no matter where they come from)..Eating chicken eggs and honey means you are eating animal products..not vegan in my book. Its fine and great to eat that stuff, but misleading to introduce yourself as vegan..

beeovoegan?

OVO-VEGETARIAN!!

But vegetarians can still wear leather and use other animal products. livefreeNHgirl does not use any animal products EXCEPT eggs.

Thanks Lex. I am sorry everyone is so hung up on how I label myself. There is no easy label for me. I am one-of-a-kind. 

All I can say is, since this world does seem to require labels, the closest label for the way I live my life is to say I am a vegan. The only variance is that I eat about 2-4 eggs a week from happy chickens. There is no one word label for that as of yet, although I kinda like "ovo-vegan" I guess. Ovo-vegetarian is too lax for my lifestyle.

[livefreeNHgirl]

I am very disheartened at the attitudes I see here. I am a very healthy vegan (almost, see below).

you should call yourself an ovo-vegetarian.
Do you eat honey too?
Do you wear wool?

I call myself a vegan because it is the most accurate term for my lifestyle. I do not purchase or consume meat, dairy products, wool, leather, fur, gelatin products, cosmetics with collagen, animal-tested products, or ANY other product that contributes to the death or torture / enslavement of animals. I do not visit or support zoos, circuses, animal racing, etc.

On the other hand, I do eat eggs for the B12 and protein, but they are carefully chosen eggs...ones from farmers I know locally, who treat their chickens very well. No harm is coming to the chickens, quite the opposite. I do eat local honey as well because I do not believe beekeepers harm the bees.

I guess this is not being a vegan in the truest sense of the word, but I personally believe these choices are in compliance with the wellbeing of animals, and in every other sense of the word I am highly committed to vegan lifestyle....more so than anyone I know personally. So, I am going with it. :-)

If anyone is interested to know, mass dairy production, although it supposedly doesn't KILL animals, is extremely cruel to cows.    They live miserable lives and their male calves are sent off to be veal. (Sorry, just felt compelled to slip that in...!)

If you spoke to anyone in my family or circle of friends, you would also know that I do not go around preaching the vegan lifestyle, nor judging people for choosing their lifestyle. (again, this is where my libertarian values come in...not "commie" as someone said earlier). On the other hand, if someone ASKS me about veganism or insults veganism, I will speak my mind. 

I still think it is REALLY FUCKING WEIRD to call yourself vegan and eat chicken's eggs (no matter where they come from)..Eating chicken eggs and honey means you are eating animal products..not vegan in my book. Its fine and great to eat that stuff, but misleading to introduce yourself as vegan..

I understand you think it is weird, but I did not simply say I was a vegan. I did "tell the truth" immediately, so I am a little resentful of being called misleading.

Anyway, man, you and I are basically on the same track here. Let's just try to get along, OK? 

Oh wait...what if I call myself "vegan-ish"...is that cool? 

[Dreepa]

There were a shitload of animals over at the fair today. Including that stolen (yes I use that word) wallaby.  I will have to post in that thread.

PS I did eat a Buffalo cheesesteak that was pretty good and had some ice cream later at the ice cream barn.

[Dave Ridley]

Welcome to NHfree.com LiveFree

remember there are other discussions going on besides "vegan B12" 

seems like libertarians always gravitate to the one topic they disagree on....

How did you find out about NHfree.com?

[tracysaboe]

I said I was against zoos, circuses, racing (and let me add rodeos to that list). HUGE difference.

For the record I think Matradoring is a very cruel sport too.

But you didn't answer my question about Zoos from my previous post.

Namely zoos, are the large part of the reason we're able to save as many endangered species as we are. Most of those animals would be dead if they weren't in zoos. How can you be against them. Or am I buying into environmentalist propaganda.

Exactly where to do draw the line between healthy relationship (pet, working dog, training, etc. and slavery. That's what I don't understand. Many times a pet is both a working animals AND companionship. Yet eyou seem to think that in working they're being made slaves.

You also never answered my question about plants. Why do animals have rights, if plants don't. They're living things too.

So are bacteria for that matter. Don't they have rights? Am I committing mass murder when I use Lysole? You know I'm always very kind to animals. I'll take an insect outside before I'll let my wife step on it. But insects are part of the animal kingdom. To be consistant, are you anti-bug killing? Is it wrong to slap a fly?

Tracy