Dada in Federal Court 7/17 .... leads to 4 days in jail

[Russell Kanning]

I make a damn fine chili...it's nice and hearty...if I made some of that, would he eat it? It might be a good switch from prison food.

If he has been fasting, he might have to take it easy on the first meal or two.
But otherwise, I would guess that Dave would fall all over himself thanking you for a bowl of homemade chili.

Dada like beans.
Dada like creamed wheat.
Dada like Raisin Bran Crunch.

[SamIam]

I wish I was up there to repeat Dave's act. Dave - When you read this, thank you for taking a stand. The more people like you willing to stand up and say enough is enough, the quicker we will see change on a large scale. Your letter to the judge was truly a masterpiece.

There was some discussion about the law, and I wanted to add my 2 cents for next time. I looked up the word Handbill in Black's Law Dictionary, and it has the following:

Handbill. A written or printed notice displayed, handed out, or posted usu. to inform interested people of an event or of something to be done.

Petition. A formal written request presented to a court or other official body.

Dave's document didn't seek to inform people of an event or something to be done. It did make a request of IRS employees (an official body) to quit their job. By legal definition, what Dave distributed was a petition. I'm not sure if this point was argued, but it could have unraveled the charge, especially in a jury trial.

Another interesting definition in Black's is:

Petition of Right. 1. One of the four great charters of English liberty. . . . establishing that "no man be compelled to make or yield any gift, loan, benevolence, tax, or such like charge without common consent by act of parliament.

The other 3 great chargers are the Magna Carta, the Habeas Corpus Act, and the Bill of Rights. Hey, one out of 4 ain't bad right? Not sure how to get around the act of parliament yet, but the answer may be in common consent.

I want to make a comment about Richardr. As libertarians, if one of us went onto a police/government forum and presented our moral arguments, how do you think they would respond? Would we be morally "right" in our ideas, and would it make any difference? The members would likely insult and demean our views, much I have seen in this thread.

Is it effective to choose the same course, when that is the very behavior we seek to change? Treat others as you would like to be treated. I think it's equally important to live this principle in small ways as much as it is in our bigger more visible actions.

[d_goddard]

Someone watching this forum has his car and personal items. We will coordinate that when we know where he is getting out.

Actually, someone has his car and someone else has his personal items.
We need to coordinate based on where and when he is getting out.

It would be a terrible missed opportunity to skip out on the radio show at noon.
It would be SUPREMELY AWESOME to have Dave on the airwaves literally moments after his release.

Hey Russ... I know you've had a pretty hectic day to say the least... but can you shoot a mail or phone call to Belforti? I emailed you his phone#

[Russell Kanning]

I wish I was up there to repeat Dave's act.

Since Dave was going up against the Feds ... at an IRS office, you can repeat it in your city.

[error]

I had an idea for a bit of civil disobedience, but it's going to take me a few days to put together. So I'll miss doing it at Dave's release. But I'll have it ready by the time the feds come for Kat and Lauren. I promise you'll like it.

[Kat Kanning]

Cool

[TackleTheWorld]

Wow, I'll bet you won't even have to leave your house to do it.

[error]

Wow, I'll bet you won't even have to leave your house to do it.

Actually, for this idea, I'll not only have to leave my house, I'll have to get up at the crack of dawn! And, I'll need help.

[KBCraig]

Wow, I'll bet you won't even have to leave your house to do it.

Actually, for this idea, I'll not only have to leave my house, I'll have to get up at the crack of dawn! And, I'll need help.

It could take three or four helpers just to get you up at the crack of dawn! 

[error]

It's quite possible that I could sleep through a tornado. Or a SWAT raid. I've been known to sleep through earthquakes.

[EthanAllen]

There was some discussion about the law, and I wanted to add my 2 cents for next time. I looked up the word Handbill in Black's Law Dictionary, and it has the following:

Handbill. A written or printed notice displayed, handed out, or posted used to inform interested people of an event or of something to be done.

Petition. A formal written request presented to a court or other official body.

Dave's document didn't seek to inform people of an event or something to be done. It did make a request of IRS employees (an official body) to quit their job. By legal definition, what Dave distributed was a petition. I'm not sure if this point was argued, but it could have unraveled the charge, especially in a jury trial.

Isn't a single individual giving a written request asking an IRS employee to quit their job "seeking for something to be done"?

Employees of the IRS are not an "official body". Official bodies are our elected representatives (local, state, federal) and the courts. A petition asks them to take action (legislation or adjudication) via a written request.

The IRS can not take petitions for redress of grievances because they could be effectively shutdown by the disruption, preventing them from completing their official duties. Nor can they allow freedom of speech nor distributing of handbills in the IRS office for the same reason.

[SamIam]

I wish I was up there to repeat Dave's act.

Since Dave was going up against the Feds ... at an IRS office, you can repeat it in your city.

Very true Russell. However, it wouldn't quite have the same support or effect in Texas. Dave and I discussed a few things at Porcfest. We are going to have some fun next year.

In the mean time, I was inspired by a comment Mark Edge made about handing giving the TSA a story about the TSA missing 90% of explosives/guns/knives. So I put that on one side, and based on Dave's adventures a petition for redress of grievances on the other. An artist friend is turning it into a really nice professional looking tri-fold brochure with the World's smallest political quiz on it as well. It should be a nice tool for my travels.

Once it's done I'll post it for comments and others to use.

[Caleb]

There was some discussion about the law, and I wanted to add my 2 cents for next time. I looked up the word Handbill in Black's Law Dictionary, and it has the following:

Handbill. A written or printed notice displayed, handed out, or posted used to inform interested people of an event or of something to be done.

Petition. A formal written request presented to a court or other official body.

Dave's document didn't seek to inform people of an event or something to be done. It did make a request of IRS employees (an official body) to quit their job. By legal definition, what Dave distributed was a petition. I'm not sure if this point was argued, but it could have unraveled the charge, especially in a jury trial.

Isn't a single individual giving a written request asking an IRS employee to quit their job "seeking for something to be done"?

Employees of the IRS are not an "official body". Official bodies are our elected representatives (local, state, federal) and the courts. A petition asks them to take action (legislation or adjudication) via a written request.

The IRS can not take petitions for redress of grievances because they could be effectively shutdown by the disruption, preventing them from completing their official duties. Nor can they allow freedom of speech nor distributing of handbills in the IRS office for the same reason.

you keep going down those same paths that get you horribly negative karma ...
maybe you ought to have a policy that you just won't comment on CD actions. Or else that you will only say nice things about people that are trying to stop the empire, rather than trying to find some technical loophole as to why they aren't doing it right.

[SamIam]

Isn't a single individual giving a written request asking an IRS employee to quit their job "seeking for something to be done"?

Employees of the IRS are not an "official body". Official bodies are our elected representatives (local, state, federal) and the courts. A petition asks them to take action (legislation or adjudication) via a written request.

The IRS can not take petitions for redress of grievances because they could be effectively shutdown by the disruption, preventing them from completing their official duties. Nor can they allow freedom of speech nor distributing of handbills in the IRS office for the same reason.

EthenAllen - Look at the word you used in your own question! ". . .giving a written request asking an IRS. . ."

To ask your question you used a term actually in the definition of petition! The distinction between the two is one is to inform the other is a request. If the document makes a request, I think it would fall under petition.  So, I would say no!

Blacks Dictionary defines official as "One who holds or is invested with a public office."

I would say the IRS is a public office, and any employee would be considered invested, which is defined as "To supply with authority or power <the U.S. Constitution invests the presidents with the power to conduct foreign affairs>" Given IRS agents supposedly have the "power" to handle IRS matters that would make them a official body in the legal sense. We have to remember words don't mean the same thing in legal land, as the law cult has made up it's own dictionary to use. Otherwise we could simply have common law courts.

[SamIam]

you keep going down those same paths that get you horribly negative karma ...
maybe you ought to have a policy that you just won't comment on CD actions. Or else that you will only say nice things about people that are trying to stop the empire, rather than trying to find some technical loophole as to why they aren't doing it right.

Caleb,

It's ok. I appreciate what EA replied with because the bureaucrats will make the exact same arguments! I thought they were very valid points, that caused me to break out the dictionary again, learn some more, and in the process increase our knowledge.

I really hope as libertarians we cherish critical thinking, especially when it doesn't agree with our own. Turn the tables and that's exactly how a majority of Americans see us! How can we ask people to consider our views, when we do not extend the same courtesy?

Love thy enemy,

SamIam