Dada in Federal Court 7/17 .... leads to 4 days in jail

[Dreepa]

Different people same thoughts!!!

[EthanAllen]

Yes. it is a waste of your time.

So much for a "discussion forum". What is the point if everyone agrees?

[toowm]

Dave is Out!!!

Is anyone transcribing the voicemails?

[Dreepa]

Different people same thoughts!!!

As opposed to Frank... same person same old thoughts again and again and again.

[EthanAllen]

Let me state something that I think should be obvious:  the goal of persuading the "public at large" when you do an act of civil disobedience is only secondary. The main goal is to get at the conscience of those who are enforcing the law. Since they are the ones who actually have to use the violence to stop you, it is their conscience that is most plagued by the action.

I think they should be well planned, not unplanned.  Indeed, the perfect is the enemy of the good, but a half-assed civil dis that isn't thought out to maximize the clarity of what you're trying to do is lost on SO many people including the idiots who are going to be enforcing the law.  I think you could have gotten a lot more people to really think about why a license is needed for manicures if right beside Mike's "illegal" manicure was another identical manicure being done for FREE.  AFAIK, you can't be arrested unless you're charging money, and so you could really point out that both people were doing the EXACT SAME THING - only, one person DIDN'T get arrested - maybe COULDN'T be arrested - WHY?  Money?
It would really underscore that licenses aren't really there to "protect the public," but to ensure business for schools that prepare you for licensure, protect an existing business hierarchy and stifle new business and innovation.

So Caleb, I don't think Denis is full of anything except enthusiasm and contemplation.  Chill.

Excellent point. With a little more planning and forethought this would have made a good CD event into a great one. Why don't libertarian activists ever coordinate with the folks from Peace Action on CD events?

[EthanAllen]

the goal of persuading the "public at large" when you do an act of civil disobedience is only secondary. The main goal is to get at the conscience of those who are enforcing the law. Since they are the ones who actually have to use the violence to stop you, it is their conscience that is most plagued by the action.

Another excellent point. The Birmingham bus boycott ended while the laws were still on the books but no one was willing to enforce them.

[Tom Sawyer]

Let me state something that I think should be obvious:  the goal of persuading the "public at large" when you do an act of civil disobedience is only secondary. The main goal is to get at the conscience of those who are enforcing the law. Since they are the ones who actually have to use the violence to stop you, it is their conscience that is most plagued by the action.

I think they should be well planned, not unplanned.  Indeed, the perfect is the enemy of the good, but a half-assed civil dis that isn't thought out to maximize the clarity of what you're trying to do is lost on SO many people including the idiots who are going to be enforcing the law.  I think you could have gotten a lot more people to really think about why a license is needed for manicures if right beside Mike's "illegal" manicure was another identical manicure being done for FREE.  AFAIK, you can't be arrested unless you're charging money, and so you could really point out that both people were doing the EXACT SAME THING - only, one person DIDN'T get arrested - maybe COULDN'T be arrested - WHY?  Money?
It would really underscore that licenses aren't really there to "protect the public," but to ensure business for schools that prepare you for licensure, protect an existing business hierarchy and stifle new business and innovation.

So Caleb, I don't think Denis is full of anything except enthusiasm and contemplation.  Chill.

Excellent point. With a little more planning and forethought this would have made a good CD event into a great one. Why don't libertarian activists ever coordinate with the folks from Peace Action on CD events?

Why don't you head that up Bill?

[Caleb]

Let me state something that I think should be obvious:  the goal of persuading the "public at large" when you do an act of civil disobedience is only secondary. The main goal is to get at the conscience of those who are enforcing the law. Since they are the ones who actually have to use the violence to stop you, it is their conscience that is most plagued by the action.

I think they should be well planned, not unplanned.  Indeed, the perfect is the enemy of the good, but a half-assed civil dis that isn't thought out to maximize the clarity of what you're trying to do is lost on SO many people including the idiots who are going to be enforcing the law.  I think you could have gotten a lot more people to really think about why a license is needed for manicures if right beside Mike's "illegal" manicure was another identical manicure being done for FREE.  AFAIK, you can't be arrested unless you're charging money, and so you could really point out that both people were doing the EXACT SAME THING - only, one person DIDN'T get arrested - maybe COULDN'T be arrested - WHY?  Money?
It would really underscore that licenses aren't really there to "protect the public," but to ensure business for schools that prepare you for licensure, protect an existing business hierarchy and stifle new business and innovation.

So Caleb, I don't think Denis is full of anything except enthusiasm and contemplation.  Chill.

Excellent point. With a little more planning and forethought this would have made a good CD event into a great one. Why don't libertarian activists ever coordinate with the folks from Peace Action on CD events?

I think that's a fantastic idea, Bill.  I have weekly discussions with the Peace Action people here in Keene, and I think that they are on board with a lot of these ideas. I think one of them went out and joined in a libertarian protest a few weeks ago here in Keene. They are generally very positive about what is being done. They don't mention the "right to common access on the sidewalk, but not in the office area, where the officials have a legitimate business to go about trying to enslave people" and other such nonsense. They just say, "keep up the good work," give their ideas, and what not.  From talking with some of them, the line that you are trying to sell, that the peace action people know "precisely what law they are breaking" is a bunch of nonsense. They are trying to make a point, and don't have any clue what law, specifically, will be used against them. Trespassing. Criminal trespass. Willfully ignoring the lawful order of a fed thug. Disturbing the peace. They don't have a clue with what they will actually be charged, they just intend to stick around long enough to make them do *something*. Not much different than what Dave did, actually, except Dave didn't originally intend to have this end up in court, he was just doing his protests, not expecting the thugs to do anything. But they decided to come after him. And Dave just said, "No" when they tried to order him to pay a fine. You couldn't ask for a more pure form of civil disobedience than that.

[Caleb]

Let me state something that I think should be obvious:  the goal of persuading the "public at large" when you do an act of civil disobedience is only secondary. The main goal is to get at the conscience of those who are enforcing the law. Since they are the ones who actually have to use the violence to stop you, it is their conscience that is most plagued by the action.

I think they should be well planned, not unplanned.  Indeed, the perfect is the enemy of the good, but a half-assed civil dis that isn't thought out to maximize the clarity of what you're trying to do is lost on SO many people including the idiots who are going to be enforcing the law.  I think you could have gotten a lot more people to really think about why a license is needed for manicures if right beside Mike's "illegal" manicure was another identical manicure being done for FREE.  AFAIK, you can't be arrested unless you're charging money, and so you could really point out that both people were doing the EXACT SAME THING - only, one person DIDN'T get arrested - maybe COULDN'T be arrested - WHY?  Money?
It would really underscore that licenses aren't really there to "protect the public," but to ensure business for schools that prepare you for licensure, protect an existing business hierarchy and stifle new business and innovation.

So Caleb, I don't think Denis is full of anything except enthusiasm and contemplation.  Chill.

Excellent point. With a little more planning and forethought this would have made a good CD event into a great one. Why don't libertarian activists ever coordinate with the folks from Peace Action on CD events?

Why don't you head that up Bill?

+1

[EthanAllen]

They are trying to make a point, and don't have any clue what law, specifically, will be used against them. Trespassing. Criminal trespass. Willfully ignoring the lawful order of a fed thug. Disturbing the peace. They don't have a clue with what they will actually be charged, they just intend to stick around long enough to make them do *something*.

They are specifically going to their representatives office and asking for a constituent meeting to discuss a redress of grievances. That is what the offices of our elected representatives are for. When they are denied the meeting they stay after hours and are arrested for trespassing.

[Bald Eagle]

HMmmm.  I haven't heard of the Peace Action folks - Do they have a website/forum so I can learn what they're about?

I never said that just going out and doing something was bad - depending on the situation, it can be - and any message you had can be lost on people who misinterpret your civil dis action as just some dumb disruptive jerk.  99% of the people out there don't know what civil disobedience is, don't know anything about Thoreau, don't know anything about Ghandi (Indira?  Mahatma?), and won't expend an erg of energy to find out.  If you want to reach people, you have to REACH OUT to them and make your message:

1. accessible
2. understandable
3. palatable

I often react VERY differently to people once I understand where they're coming from.  It's especially hard to reach people if there's negative media spin, so effective communication with your audience - whether intended or not - is crucial.  You may do a great civil dis that connects with the LEO's, but because of media spin stirring up the soccer moms and busybodies results in the dreaded NEW LAW.

1.  You've got to come to grips with the fact that most people out there have a 5th grade reading level, don't grasp abstract concepts very well, don't "put the pieces together" very well, and have a VERY short attention span.  Your message needs to short, simple, and built with big square blocks and primary colors.  Spell it out for them in crayon.

2. I've talked to a lot of people in the liberty movement, and sometimes they're doing things that don't even make sense to ME, and I'm already on board with the basic concepts and tenets of freedom.  What they're doing is never going to be understood by the average person walking by, hearing about it secondhand, or flipping through the channels and seeing the news coverage.  The goal of the civil dis action needs to be clear, it needs to be ethical, it needs to address an issue that people can get on board with - OR - address an issue in a WAY that people can get on board with it.

3.  This brings us to palatability.  The same raw materials in different people's hands will yield products that your average Joe will either WANT or AVOID.  We're trying to build a freedom movement, get people's attention, wake them up, educate them, gain them as allies, and get them involved.  We can't do that if we have an unpalatable message, either by design, ignorance, or accident. 

Protesting against DEA agents dragging terminal cancer patients out of their hospital beds at gunpoint is going to be WAY more effective than just protesting the WOD.
Protesting stupid laws statutes that don't protect anyone and put otherwise good people in jail is better than trying to decriminalize cocaine or child Pr0n.
Spending the extra half hour to consider who your audience is before launching into a civil dis action may make or break it.  Spending the time to observe your audience and be flexible in your approach may take an average civil dis action and turn it into a national cause.

Having a well-planned, organized, and photogenic civil dis action will likely get you a better first impression, gain you better media coverage and attract better attention from the people in TV land who are conditioned to see actors with toothpaste smiles.  You need them to pay attention in a receptive frame of mind if you want to communicate your message and have them agree with you.  Lots of people hate dirty hippies who hold REPENT signs and just complain.  Soccer moms with their daughters in flowery dresses and Easter bonnets will hold people's attention, and they'll stay tuned in long enough to hear what you have to say.

This isn't my manifesto for what I say civil dis has to be, it's just a few reasonable and logical observations about the facts of life and society, and how to maximize our interaction with them in our favor.

I HATE the socialists, but the Student Action Union used to do some great protests and civil dis.  They got together and taught classes about what to do, how to do it, and how to deal with the media.  CLASSES.  They groomed people for PR positions and social manipulation.  They made a huge impact. 

We can't afford to be marginalized because of poor planning and lack of consideration.

[KBCraig]

Porc-411, message 1:

"It's Dave Ridley reporting in from 55 Pleasant Street. Just got out of lockup half an hour ago for my 'distribution of handbills' charge and walked out of the building to see this wonderful group of people here. It looks like there are almost eight of us here now. It's pretty cool.

"So anyway, I'm out now almost a day early, and just wanted to announce that, and don't know what to announce... so there are lots of details, a lot that I'll have to tell, but overall it was a positive experience, I learned a lot from it. I think it was worthwhile, but we haven't had a chance to see all the benefits and costs yet.

"It's a real honor that you guys have come to my defense so much, and that's what makes this worth doing.

"Anyway, I look forward to seeing this on the forum as soon as possible. Please transcribe....yadda-dada."

[EthanAllen]

I haven't heard of the Peace Action folks - Do they have a website/forum so I can learn what they're about?

http://www.nhpeaceaction.org/

excerpts:

On Wednesday May 9th, nine New Hampshire residents committed civil disobedience at Senator John Sununu's Manchester office in protest of the Senator's continued support for the war in Iraq. About 30 other antiwar protesters from NH Peace Action, Seacoast Peace Response and other organizations throughout the state demonstrated outside in support.

+++++++++



Monday is the day the Dover 6 go on trial for daring to stay in the Congressional offices occupied by Jeb Bradley after closing time.

The trial of the Dover 6, originally scheduled for Sept. 21 in the Dover District Court, will take place on Monday, October 30, at 1:00 pm. The defendants participated in a civil disobedience action at Congressman Jeb Bradley's office in Dover on May 31 with the goal of ending the Iraq war. Please attend the trial and dress all in black to show your support for the Dover 6. 

The defendants took part in a civil disobedience action sponsored by NH Peace Action and Seacoast Peace Response. They were arrested for criminal trespass, a Class A Misdemeanor (RSA 635:2) that carries a maximum penalty of one year in jail and a $2000 fine.  Attorney Patrick Fleming of Portsmouth will represent the Dover 6:  Adam Carine, 39, of Dover; Randall Kezar, 70, of Kingston; Macy Morse, 85, of Portsmouth; Nina Jordan, 67, of Lee; Lee Roberts, 70, of Portsmouth; and William R. Woodward, 62, of Durham.

This civil disobedience action was based on a letter to US Representative Jeb Bradley that asked the Representative to respond to the public by letting them know that he would support one of several bills in Congress to end the hostilities and remove our troops and permanent bases from Iraq.  Due to lack of a response from the Representative, the six, named above, remained in Bradley's office after the 5 pm closing time. 

Approximately 50 concerned citizens spent the afternoon of May 31 in Bradley's office reading the names of soldiers and civilians killed in Iraq, remaining peaceful and non-confrontational before either leaving or being arrested after the office closed at 5 pm.  The arrestees were arraigned on June 23 in Dover District Court and were released on their own recognizance. Their trial, originally scheduled for August 21, was postponed until Monday, October 30th.

[KBCraig]

Porc-411, Message 2:

"Hello everyone, this is error, and I am calling to let you know that Dave Ridley and a bunch of other people are going to celebrate tonight at Murphy's Taproom, 494 Elm Street in Manchester. Please join us. We'll be there probably from about 7:30 through late evening. We'll see you there. Bye!"

[KBCraig]

Porc-411, Message 3:

"Hello, this is Russell, and we are standing here with Dave the Free Man, he's been free for like a half hour, anyway, you can hear Dave here in just a second..."

(Dave) "Hello, what? Who am I talking to?"

(Russell) "You're talking to the machine."

(Dave) "Oh, you mean the voice machine."

(Russell) "It's Porc-411"

(Dave) "I've already done that!"

(laughter)

(Russell) "Oh, okay, we are going to go from here in Concord to Murphy's Taproom to celebrate. We'll be there in like a half hour or something like that. So if anyone wants to join us, Dave Ridley will be there in person telling stories about jail at Murphy's Taproom. Talk to you guys later, 'bye!"