Big, bad news! Liberty Dollar offices raided.

[CNHT]

I don't see what they have against people who bought gold. It is not illegal to buy gold.
We don't have to let them in. We have not done anything wrong.
Do you realize how many millions of people they'd have to visit?

[penguins4me]

I don't see what they have against people who bought gold. It is not illegal to buy gold.
We don't have to let them in. We have not done anything wrong.
Do you realize how many millions of people they'd have to visit?

Please stop. The sheer magnitude of your sarcasm is making my nose bleed. :(

[Tom Sawyer]

Hey this is the beginning of the fight not the end...
Heavy handed tactics on the gooberments part are the opportunity to let the public see what is going on.

If the Liberty Dollar, hard currency, Ron Paul crowd play this situation right there is a lot of mileage to be made.

Feds Ban Hard Currency etc.

Use your imagination and anger in a positive direction... They created the wave now is the time to surf it.
LTE's, viral videos, CD there are many avenues. Do something to stir things up, don't just hang your head and cry.

[CNHT]

I don't see what they have against people who bought gold. It is not illegal to buy gold.
We don't have to let them in. We have not done anything wrong.
Do you realize how many millions of people they'd have to visit?

Please stop. The sheer magnitude of your sarcasm is making my nose bleed.

It says that NORFED dollars are illegal if attempted to be used in place of gov't dollars. But don't people just agree to use then among themselves which constitutes barter? It's not like you hand them to someone who doesn't know what they are...? It would be like me offering you a clam shell in return for a mussel shell...we agreed to trade.

I'm not being sarcastic at all. I'm wanting to know how anyone can get in trouble since this stuff is so widely used.

[penguins4me]

I don't see what they have against people who bought gold. It is not illegal to buy gold.
We don't have to let them in. We have not done anything wrong.
Do you realize how many millions of people they'd have to visit?

Please stop. The sheer magnitude of your sarcasm is making my nose bleed. :(

It says that NORFED dollars are illegal if attempted to be used in place of gov't dollars. But don't people just agree to use then among themselves which constitutes barter? It's not like you hand them to someone who doesn't know what they are...? It would be like me offering you a clam shell in return for a mussel shell...we agreed to trade.

I'm not being sarcastic at all. I'm wanting to know how anyone can get in trouble since this stuff is so widely used.

I thought not. But then re-read the top quote: It is not illegal to make pretty medallions out of precious metals. The LD folks were not passing off their medallions as US tender. It is not illegal to barter. The goons let themselves in 'cause they "had a warrant". The LD folks (to the best of my knowledge), did nothing legally nor morally wrong, insofar as the untwisted spirit of the law goes. One down, nine hundred ninty-nine thousand nine hundred and ninty-nine left to go (though we're actually quite a bit further along than that).

[error]

Saying the LD is legal tender, or in any way authorized or associated with the U.S. Government, is a crime under 18 USC 486. (It's also fraudulent. Don't do it.) But that doesn't seem to be what this particular case is about. As best I can tell, they're alleging money laundering, mail fraud and wire fraud. I of course know of nothing that would even remotely suggest that Liberty Dollar or von NotHaus did anything like that. But remember, you're guilty until proven innocent, and to get the stuff back, they would have to prove they didn't commit any crimes. This is impossible, which is why any civilized society got rid of the concept of proving one's innocence long ago. Unfortunately it's come back here.

[coffeeseven]

The residents of Ithica, NY should be watching this. Was it MVPEL that listed all of the independent currencies on a different thread? Maybe someone could repost them and we could watch all of the rest of the currencies being left alone.

[Kat Kanning]

The Ithaca Dollars thing?

[coffeeseven]

The Ithaca Dollars thing?

Yes

[penguins4me]

I'm hoping that no one here suggests that they didn't have the right to defend their property with force.
Had they mounted the same defense of their property that they should have been prepared to mount in the case of non-government thieves, this would have made it into the national news.

I don't believe anyone is suggesting that. My brief statement about force was taken as something more than an off-hand statement of fact, likely construed as myself stating that the LD folks should go get vengeance using force. As I'd stated, though, the time for defense in that matter is over.

I'm aware that the Kannings are non-violence advocates, and that this forum is their private property. If they don't want something discussed which could come cause goons to come and give them trouble over something they aren't even responsible for, that is completely understandable.

Yes, it would probably be wiser for me to simply shut up about such things, as I am not eager to have to stand by such big talk. I'm not too smart, though... :(

[CNHT]

Saying the LD is legal tender, or in any way authorized or associated with the U.S. Government, is a crime under 18 USC 486. (It's also fraudulent. Don't do it.) But that doesn't seem to be what this particular case is about. As best I can tell, they're alleging money laundering, mail fraud and wire fraud. I of course know of nothing that would even remotely suggest that Liberty Dollar or von NotHaus did anything like that. But remember, you're guilty until proven innocent, and to get the stuff back, they would have to prove they didn't commit any crimes. This is impossible, which is why any civilized society got rid of the concept of proving one's innocence long ago. Unfortunately it's come back here.

Mail fraud? That would be like saying I'm going to sell you a gold coin and it ends up being tin but I took your money. To my knowledge that hasn't happened. I'm still searching for another motive for this, other than to discredit RP supporters. Money laundering, not sure how BvN would have done that...or why.

[penguins4me]

Money laundering, not sure how BvN would have done that...or why.

IIRC, "money laundering" was one of the excuses the goons had used to shut down and steal e-gold's business and property; the implication was that others were using e-gold's business to launder money and that that was reason enough to put that on the warrant, regardless of the rather stringent methods already used by e-gold's owner to attempt to thwart such. ... the logic of which is, of course, totally flawed.

[Ogre]

It would be like me offering you a clam shell in return for a mussel shell...we agreed to trade

My reading of the US Mint's site is that if one person does that, it's okay.  However, it ten people agree to trade clam shells for goods or services, that's illegal and they'll punish you.  After all, you're making trades and not giving government a share of that trade, so that's illegal in this country.

[Tom Sawyer]

Jane this crap has it's roots in the Drug War...
Money Laundering, Asset Forfeiture, etc... Federal power like never seen before. The prosecutors don't even have to go to court in 95% of the cases. they can pile on charges to the point that even innocent people plead guilty.

[CNHT]

It would be like me offering you a clam shell in return for a mussel shell...we agreed to trade

My reading of the US Mint's site is that if one person does that, it's okay.  However, it ten people agree to trade clam shells for goods or services, that's illegal and they'll punish you.  After all, you're making trades and not giving government a share of that trade, so that's illegal in this country.

Hmm, here come da chip. Then they'll know if I bake you some friggin' lasagna for mowing my lawn and charge me taxes on the transaction..I frequently use lasagna as an instrument of barter. We'll hafta call it the lasagna tax.. LOL